F-117 due to retire

[waste gate]

Just doesn't have the legs of the B-52.

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123030185

[JSLTIGER]

That's OK...we have the F-22 to replace it.

[Syxx_Killer]

That's surprising. It doesn't even seem that old. Look at the A-10. That old bird is still flying strong. Anytime I read or hear something about the F-117, I can't help but think of the old Microprose flight sim F-117 Nighthawk (I think that was the name). What a cool game that was. That is what first got me interested in this sort of thing.

[SUBMAN1]

That's surprising. It doesn't even seem that old. Look at the A-10. That old bird is still flying strong. Anytime I read or hear something about the F-117, I can't help but think of the old Microprose flight sim F-117 Nighthawk (I think that was the name). What a cool game that was. That is what first got me interested in this sort of thing.

Started off as Microprose F-19!! Am I dating myself again? :p The F-22 is faster and just as stealthy, so this old bird that isn't that old is being replaced. I think it is still useful, but I have no idea what the upkeep on this aircraft is and I suspect it is rather expensive to keep up if it is already being retired.

Besides, aren't more modern radars capable of spotting or burning through the F-117's stealth at short range now? Maybe not, but it does use old stealth technology that is probably not as effective anymore.

-S

[Takeda Shingen]

Besides, aren't more modern radars capable of spotting or burning through the F-117's stealth at short range now? Maybe not, but it does use old stealth technology that is probably not as effective anymore.

-S

That was my understanding. Also, I have heard that the 117's are expensive and time-consuming when it comes to maintainance.

[SUBMAN1]

Besides, aren't more modern radars capable of spotting or burning through the F-117's stealth at short range now? Maybe not, but it does use old stealth technology that is probably not as effective anymore.

-S
That was my understanding. Also, I have heard that the 117's are expensive and time-consuming when it comes to maintainance.

Thats what I thought. Takes a pretty good sized team to keep them flying, dealing with RAM coatings, etc.

-S

[Ducimus]

AF' does alot of weird, unfathomable stuff. If i were to make a guess, i think the real reason is they have to cut funds somwhere so the fighter mafia can have its new toy.

[SUBMAN1]

AF' does alot of weird, unfathomable stuff. If i were to make a guess, i think the real reason is they have to cut funds somwhere so the fighter mafia can have its new toy.
Well, we needed that new fighter. I am not so sure we need F-35 as much as we need F-22, but that is another debate.

The F-117's stealth is even compromised by wet weather, so you can see why they don't care too much about it. Even in Kosovo when one finially was shot down, the US didn't even waste a sortie on it to blow up the crash site! That shows you they have no care for it anymore and it is no longer a high value asset. They even knew RUssian engineers were on the way to analyze it and they still didn't even bother to blow up the crash site.

My thoughts - F-22 + Switchblade are the current front line tech. If anyone is wondering what switchblade is, Lockheed filed a patent back around 2000 for a fighter design that can change shape from a Delta wing, to a 45 degree forward sweep, to a straight wing design. Last time I checked, you had to have a working prototype to get a patent! This is probably the famed Aurora though.

-S

[Ducimus]

Well, we needed that new fighter.

Not meaning to argue, but ive always wondered about the validity of it's "need". The state of conflicts these days are primarly low intensity conflicts. Insurgents, terrorts, or village goat pokers don't exactly have a radar network to defeat. Most technological advances wont do us much good in those scenerio's. I honestly don't see the need Unless we go to war with North Korea or china.

Now that said, i really do miss the SR-71 :rotfl: Seeing that plane hit the mothballs pained me, but the case for retiring that one was far more clear cut.

[waste gate]

Well, we needed that new fighter.

Not meaning to argue, but ive always wondered about the validity of it's "need". The state of conflicts these days are primarly low intensity conflicts. Insurgents, terrorts, or village goat pokers don't exactly have a radar network to defeat. Most technological advances wont do us much good in those scenerio's. I honestly don't see the need Unless we go to war with North Korea or china.

Now that said, i really do miss the SR-71 :rotfl: Seeing that plane hit the mothballs pained me, but the case for retiring that one was far more clear cut.


Just because the US isn't currently invovled in an overt threat from advanced, technologically savy provacatours is not a reason to unilaterally cripple ousrselves. Technology marches on and if the US as the 'big dog' doesn't continue to move forward militarily and technologically then the non-overt threats will walk into your back yard. When I say your back yard I mean the Ducimus back yard.

I'm not one for big gov't, but the one thing it should do without fail is protect its citizens.

[tycho102]

The F-117 is a bomber. The only thing is has over the B-2 is an even smaller radar signature, and I would guess the Pentagon has finally realized that the B-2's signature is already so small, there's just not much of a need for the 117's.

The F-22 is far from a "replacement".

The SR-71 has been replaced by the Aurora. It's a pulsejet running on methane, and goes faster and higher. I think the only reason it's not in active service right now is because of the refueling issue. Methane is exotic in comparison to JP-5 or JP-8 -- which can both be pumped from the same equipment. A specialized XKC-135 would have to be outfitted, and that thing would probably have to have it's own internal refrigeration system.

[SUBMAN1]

Well, we needed that new fighter.
Not meaning to argue, but ive always wondered about the validity of it's "need". The state of conflicts these days are primarly low intensity conflicts. Insurgents, terrorts, or village goat pokers don't exactly have a radar network to defeat. Most technological advances wont do us much good in those scenerio's. I honestly don't see the need Unless we go to war with North Korea or china.

Now that said, i really do miss the SR-71 :rotfl: Seeing that plane hit the mothballs pained me, but the case for retiring that one was far more clear cut.
Nope - everyone is not looking at who we will end up at war with, with a 100% gurantee that it will happen - China.

China currently fields SU-30K's that will decimate our F-15'a and F-16's. THis is why F-22 exists.

Next in line is SAM systems are advancing at a pace that will completely deny US air assets such as the F-15 and F-16 from any hope of enemy airspace penetration in the near future, so stealth is becoming a mandatory asset if you plan to have any hope of enemy airspace penetration.

China is also preparing its citizens for the near future conflict with America as you can see here:

Asian Times
AMERICA'S ACUPUNCTURE POINTS
PART 1: Striking the US where it hurts:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/HJ19Ad01.html

PART 2: The assassin's mace:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/HJ20Ad01.html



Here is a PDF on the subject on why we will go to war with China:
http://ftp.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/doctrine/97-0601I.pdf

How the US will fight China:
http://pekingduck.org/archives/How%20We%20Would%20Fight%20China.pdf

More on why we will go to war with China:
http://www.d-n-i.net/lind/lind_5_18_05.htm

A Washington Post article on the subject:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/specialreport/20050626-122138-1088r.htm

Some recent examples of Chinese hostility has even included forced landing of a P-3 so that it can be stripped for its technology and an understanding of what its capabilities are. Laser based attacks and tests to understand how to blind US satilites. Need I go on? We need F-22 more than ever. We also need our space based satilites upgraded so we can see - right now we are running adequated sats too! Without, we will be Chinese duck soup and our casulty rate will be enormous!

-S

PS. Don't think for a second that SR-71 wasn't replaced.

[Ducimus]

I just think the funds would be better spent ELSEWHERE within the military. The service misappropriates things all the time. The United States Air Force, is awesome at this. I spent 7 years in it so i hae a little bit of a clue, but to this end i admit i have a biased poitn of view.

Theres two USAF's. Yes two. You have the Flying Air force, and the non flying air force. What the flying AF wants, the flying AF gets. Everyone else gets the short bus. Pilots are generally pedigreed and pampered. Nothing quite a disgrunteling as being on a deployment, and seeing the flyboys in an airconditioned temper tent while everyone else is billited in GP medium tents that have probably been in the inventory longer then most anyone who's sleeping in the have been alive on this planet.

On the bigger picture, each branch is allocated a certain alotment of money. If they do not speed that entirely allotment, they get a smaller alotment the next fiscal year. That means when the end of the fiscal year comes near, they go on a spending spree. This big picture, works the exact same way all the way down to the smallest duty section. So you'll have guys walking around with their own private collection of undocumented leathermans or gerbers (i was an engineer), courtesy of our friend the taxpayer.

Despite all that, you never really have the stuff you really NEED, because they've spent all their money elsewhere so they can keep their money allotment status quo. The AF spends its money on primarly two things that im aware of. Base beautification, and planes. More pratical things like tools you need in order to do your job, is an after thought. So you have steath fighters designed for a cold war era conflict, and 300 feet of fencing which cost the taxpayers 350,000 dollars.

[SUBMAN1]

I just think the funds would be better spent ELSEWHERE within the military. The service misappropriates things all the time. The United States Air Force, is awesome at this. I spent 7 years in it so i hae a little bit of a clue, but to this end i admit i have a biased poitn of view.

Theres two USAF's. Yes two. You have the Flying Air force, and the non flying air force. What the flying AF wants, the flying AF gets. Everyone else gets the short bus. Pilots are generally pedigreed and pampered. Nothing quite a disgrunteling as being on a deployment, and seeing the flyboys in an airconditioned temper tent while everyone else is billited in GP medium tents that have probably been in the inventory longer then most anyone who's sleeping in the have been alive on this planet.

On the bigger picture, each branch is allocated a certain alotment of money. If they do not speed that entirely allotment, they get a smaller alotment the next fiscal year. That means when the end of the fiscal year comes near, they go on a spending spree. This big picture, works the exact same way all the way down to the smallest duty section. So you'll have guys walking around with their own private collection of undocumented leathermans or gerbers (i was an engineer), courtesy of our friend the taxpayer.

Despite all that, you never really have the stuff you really NEED, because they've spent all their money elsewhere so they can keep their money allotment status quo. The AF spends its money on primarly two things that im aware of. Base beautification, and planes. More pratical things like tools you need in order to do your job, is an after thought. So you have steath fighters designed for a cold war era conflict, and 300 feet of fencing which cost the taxpayers 350,000 dollars.
I hear ya, but we are going back into a Cold War and it will likely turn hot this time. From what it sounds like, they need more money. Plain and simple. THe F-22 will allieviate some of the tool problems you describe too since it is currently costing what? 10% to 20% the maintenance as required by an F-15? I can see why they will pay the higher up front initial costs since the cost of onership will eventually pay for itself along with the added capability.

Sorry to hear your plight about being stuck in the heat, etc. I can understand why it is like that too since you want your flyboys as crisp and sharp as possible for when they climb into that cockpit to do their job, and I can also see the jelousy that would arise from their 'extra' treatment in that regard.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

The F-117 is a bomber. The only thing is has over the B-2 is an even smaller radar signature, and I would guess the Pentagon has finally realized that the B-2's signature is already so small, there's just not much of a need for the 117's.

The F-22 is far from a "replacement".

The SR-71 has been replaced by the Aurora. It's a pulsejet running on methane, and goes faster and higher. I think the only reason it's not in active service right now is because of the refueling issue. Methane is exotic in comparison to JP-5 or JP-8 -- which can both be pumped from the same equipment. A specialized XKC-135 would have to be outfitted, and that thing would probably have to have it's own internal refrigeration system.
Quite the opposite - the B-2 has an even 'smaller radar sig' that the F-117!

[waste gate]

seeing the flyboys in an airconditioned temper tent while everyone else is billited in GP medium tents that have probably been in the inventory longer then most anyone who's sleeping in the have been alive on this planet

You spend 6 to eight hours in a bubble canopied airplane at 45 to 55 thousand feet and tell me its not hot.

EDIT: Not to mention what it does to your ears when you roll in on a target.

[Ducimus]

Heat didnt bother me. I spent most of my duty day outdoors. In my world it never rained, it never snowed, it never got too hot, it never got too cold, and it never got dark, for 14 hours a day, 6 days a week. Weather.. meh, it is what it is, and you never thought much of it. The special treatment, was what was annoying, and on top of that, they would STILL complain if everything wasn't just perfect for them. Thankfully, i didnt spend all of my enlistment in an engineering unit attached to an air wing so i didnt have to put up with that grabage all the time.

[waste gate]

Heat didnt bother me. I spent most of my duty day outdoors. In my world it never rained, it never snowed, it never got too hot, it never got too cold, and it never got dark, for 14 hours a day, 6 days a week. Weather.. meh, it is what it is, and you never thought much of it. The special treatment, was what was annoying, and on top of that, they would STILL complain if everything wasn't just perfect for them. Thankfully, i didnt spend all of my enlistment in an engineering unit attached to an air wing so i didnt have to put up with that grabage all the time.

The difference BTWN enlisting and earning a commission.
But as John Kerry said...............

[SUBMAN1]

The F-22 is far from a "replacement".



I'm still trying to figure out where you come up with this idea. I looked for evidence to the contrary, and came up short. It turns out it is far 'more' a replacement. My only thoughts are - we already have a squadron of F-117's... Anyway, from my notes:

Stealth RCS:

According to the Russian engineers that pulled the downed F-117 apart, they estimate RCS to be about .01 - the exact same RCS as found on F-22, so neither has an advantage there. I can tell you the mixture of materials as used on F-22 is a hell of a lot easier to maintain that the RAM coatings as found on F-117, and it is not vulnerable to water or moisture in the air.

Speed:

F-117 is Subsonic only. F-22 has Supercruise of at least Mach 1.5 (The minimum for the design requirement, and considering an F-22 in military power can out accelerate an F-15C in full afterburner means it is probably much higher) giving it the capability to be on target and out of enemy airspace twice as fast, as well as giving the enemy half as long to react considering they know it is there.

Range:

F-22 - 1800 to 2000 mi with internal fuel (non-supercruise), and 2800 mi with drop tanks. F-117 range is at 535 mi.

Internal only weapon payload:

F-117 - 2 LGB's. F-22 - 2 JDAM's along with 2 AIM-120C's and 2 AIM-9X's and GAU-4 Vulcan 20 mm cannon giving it the ability to go Air to Air even inroute to target and giving it the ability to give aid to other NATO aircraft at any time without jepordizing itself - a capability the F-117 doesn't have at all.

In the air to air mode, 1 single F-22 took on 6 F-15's at the same time alone, and after several sorties, the F-15 pilots gave up even trying to fight since it became more of a game to simply survive for longer than 2 minutes than to even bother about fighting it. They all died (vuirtually only) over and over again.

Avionics:

I won't even get into this, but the F-22's ability to share information with AWACS and other surrounding NATO aircraft and the ability to use its active aperture, electronically-scanned array (worth its weight in gold by the way - litterally - it is that expensive!) with little chance of counter detection is something the F-117 is completely lacking. THe one thing the F-117 has going for it is some sort of secret LGB designator that is supposed to be very accurate as compared to other fighters/bombers.

I tired of typing. Basically, the F-117 doesn't really have anything on F-22 that I can find which is why I questioned that statement. If you want more, I can keep going.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Heat didnt bother me. I spent most of my duty day outdoors. In my world it never rained, it never snowed, it never got too hot, it never got too cold, and it never got dark, for 14 hours a day, 6 days a week. Weather.. meh, it is what it is, and you never thought much of it. The special treatment, was what was annoying, and on top of that, they would STILL complain if everything wasn't just perfect for them. Thankfully, i didnt spend all of my enlistment in an engineering unit attached to an air wing so i didnt have to put up with that grabage all the time.

Ouch! You make it sound really bad! :-? Sorry to hear that.

[SUBMAN1]

F-117 is vulnerable to Long Wavelength Radar and F-22 is not? THis is another thing I just pulled. Maybe that helps explain F-117's retirement:

...high maintenance costs and older stealth technology that is vulnerable to long-wavelength radar, combined with a subsonic speed limit, makes the F-117 more dangerous to fly. They contend that the F-22A is the logical successor considering that:
Its stealth is nearly as advanced as the B-2's, and reportedly more effective than the F-117's.
It can fly at supersonic speeds without using afterburners and thus can reach targets more quickly.
Its radar-absorbing material requires far less maintenance than that of the F-117.
The new 250 lb small diameter bomb entering service and designed specifically to fit in the F-22A's internal munitions bays have the same penetrating power as the larger 2000 lb BLU-109 bomb.

[Ducimus]

The difference BTWN enlisting and earning a commission.
But as John Kerry said...............

Their are commissionied officers in the engineers too. You never saw them being the baby's like the flyboys. While we had our share of flakes, most lead by example.

[SUBMAN1]

Accidently posted this in the wrong thread:

From Wikipedia:

Does this explain why they are retiring?

-S
One F-117 has been lost in combat, to Serbian/Yugoslav forces. On March 27 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/../wiki/March_27), 1999 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/../wiki/1999), during the Kosovo War (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/../wiki/Kosovo_War), the 3rd Battalion of the 250th Missile Brigade under the command of Colonel Zoltán Dani (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/../wiki/Zolt%C3%A1n_Dani), equipped with the Isayev S-125 'Neva-M' (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/../wiki/SA-3_Goa) (NATO designation SA-3 'Goa' (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/../wiki/SA-3_Goa)), downed F-117A serial number 82-806 with a Neva-M missile. According to Wesley Clark (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/../wiki/Wesley_Clark) and other NATO generals, Yugoslav air defenses found that they could detect F-117s with their "obsolete" Soviet radars operating on long wavelengths. This, combined with the loss of stealth when the jets got wet or opened their bomb bays, made them visible on radar screens. The pilot survived and was later rescued by NATO (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/../wiki/NATO) forces. However, the wreckage of the F-117 was not promptly bombed, and the Serbs are believed to have invited Russian personnel to inspect the remains, inevitably compromising the US stealth technology.[9] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#_note-7)
The SAMs were most likely guided manually with the help of thermal imagers and laser rangefinders included in the Pechora-M variant of the SA-3s believed to have been used. It is unlikely that the radar could have gotten a solid track on the F-117 for more than a very short time, which would have not be enough to launch and guide an SA-3 to the target. Reportedly several SA-3s were launched, one of which must have exploded close enough to the F-117A to force the pilot to eject. According to an interview, Zoltán Dani was able to keep most of his missile sites intact and had a number of spotters spread out looking for F-117s and other aircraft. Zoltán and his missile crews guessed the flight paths of earlier F-117As from occasional visual and radar spottings and judging from this information and what target had just been bombed, Zoltan and his missile battery determined the probable flight path of F-117A #82-806. His missile crews and spotters were then able to locate it and fire their missiles. Zoltán also claims to have modified his radars to better detect the F-117A, but he has not disclosed what was changed. Parts of the shot-down aircraft are now presented to the public in the Museum of Yugoslav Aviation (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/../wiki/Museum_of_Yugoslav_Aviation) in Belgrade (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/../wiki/Belgrade).
Some sources claim a second F-117A was also damaged during a raid in the Kosovo War, and although it made it back to its base, it never flew again.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Theres two USAF's. Yes two. You have the Flying Air force, and the non flying air force. What the flying AF wants, the flying AF gets. Everyone else gets the short bus. Pilots are generally pedigreed and pampered.

You pretty much just summed up the reason behind this nation's most expensive defense project ever: the pilot community wants to keep their job.

PD

[ASWnut101]

sorry to burst your guy(es?) bubbles, but the F-22 is NOT going to replace the F-117. The F-35 JSF (joint strike fighter) will. F-22 will replace F-15 and F-16. F-35 will replace the F-117, F/A-18, and the AV-8B Harrier.:know: