China Gets a Carrier...And Su-33's

[Bort]

http://www.sinodefence.com/news/2006/news06-10-24.asp
Well, it looks like this all but makes it official, the Chinese are definately getting into the tailhook business. The ex-varyag is currently being refitted to become China's first aircraft carrier and now they're buying some very capable aircraft to operate from their new birdfarm.

[Bort]

Sorry:oops: Somehow I accidentally started two threads. Could the mods please delete this one, thanks.:damn:

[ASWnut101]

That huge rusting piece of floating steel is getting operational? Man, I sure wouldn't want to serve on it.....A hard landing SU-33 would problably put holes in the flight deck:lol: ....... It's like 30 years old, a pushover sent to china by USSR (Russia).

[Bort]

With the overhaul it's going through I doubt it will be very rusty anymore. More important, I think the Chinese are viewing Varyag as a stepping stone to a bigger, better fleet of indigenously designed flattops.

[sonar732]

Varyag pierside (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=dalian+china&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF-8&client=firefox-a&z=17&ll=38.941386,121.644219&spn=0.003488,0.010815&t=k&om=1).

Just NNW of the "default" location you'll see some blue buildings next to the water. There she is just north of them.

[SUBMAN1]

Varyag pierside (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=dalian+china&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF-8&client=firefox-a&z=17&ll=38.941386,121.644219&spn=0.003488,0.010815&t=k&om=1).

Just NNW of the "default" location you'll see some blue buildings next to the water. There she is just north of them.

Rust.

[JSLTIGER]

That huge rusting piece of floating steel is getting operational? Man, I sure wouldn't want to serve on it.....A hard landing SU-33 would problably put holes in the flight deck:lol: ....... It's like 30 years old, a pushover sent to china by USSR (Russia).
Um...I hate to nitpick here, but even if he is 30 years old, he's (the Russians refer to their ships in the masculine) still a decent carrier, and he's bigger than many of the ones European nations have these days. Just because he's 30+ years old doesn't mean he's toothless.

Also consider that Kitty Hawk was launched in 1960, making her 46 years old, the Enterprise was launched in 1961, making her 45, and JFK was launched in 1967, making her 40. Nimitz was launched in 1974, making her 32 years old. I wouldn't consider any of these carriers a "pushover" in any sense of the world.

[waste gate]

I'm thinking it takes a lot more than buying an aircraft carrier and 50 airplanes to make a viable threat. Ask the US Navy what it takes to put a carrier to sea as a viable fighting force.

[bookworm_020]

I wonder if the Ukrainians will demandcompansation for breech of contract, as they said it would be turned into a casino.

It will need some engines to be installes as the Ukrainians removed them before handing the ship over. I don't think a rubber band attached to the propeller count's as an engine!:lol:

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Um...I hate to nitpick here, but even if he is 30 years old, he's (the Russians refer to their ships in the masculine) still a decent carrier, and he's bigger than many of the ones European nations have these days. Just because he's 30+ years old doesn't mean he's toothless.

Actually, it is not a very good carrier. Because of the lack of a catapult, only the good low-speed performance of the Su-33K and MiG-29K allows it to be a CTOL carrier (the plane makes up for the carrier). The French carriers carry a similar number of aircraft on >20000t less displacement. Yes, part of that is because of its requirement to be a cruiser as well, but it doesn't quite have enough defensive armament to "go it alone" with only its point defence suite, so it'd need escorts just as much as a full-time carrier, and the SS-N-19 missiles were apparently placed in a way that blocked off further extension of the hangar, limiting the space available.

[Kapitan]

The varyag is acctualy not 30 years old nearing it but hasnt hit it yet, the kuznetsov class are 60,000 tonne air craft carrying cruisers, but the chinese let her get in a bit of a state she needs four engines and four propellors.

Her SS-N-19 missiles can be taken out and hanger increased but as a first carrier well its a good one seeing as america started off with less and built up to what it is.

The enterprise was built in 1961 so your trying to say any carrier older than 30 is not worth anything i think that puts about 6 american carriers out of use then.

[tycho102]

That. Is. C-R-A-Z-Y. It doesn't have a catapult? Woah, dude. That totally brings back memories of Doolittle's Raiders.

It's entirely possible they might "retrofit" some low power pistons on there. The system isn't all that complex, but it needs it's own boiler, and the water-brake and piston require some tight tolerances to keep the steam losses minimal.

About the only "country" China will invade is Taiwan, and they're not going to do it haphazardly. They know their economy will take a gigantic flying flop if they do it militarily.

[SUBMAN1]

That. Is. C-R-A-Z-Y. It doesn't have a catapult? Woah, dude. That totally brings back memories of Doolittle's Raiders.

It's entirely possible they might "retrofit" some low power pistons on there. The system isn't all that complex, but it needs it's own boiler, and the water-brake and piston require some tight tolerances to keep the steam losses minimal.

About the only "country" China will invade is Taiwan, and they're not going to do it haphazardly. They know their economy will take a gigantic flying flop if they do it militarily.

Problem is, CHina is not as interested in the US anymore and I get the sense they think they can take the economic hit if they do invade Taiwan. +, there military is designed not to stop but to slow the US down so that a Taiwan invasion would be successful and completed by the time the US got to its shores. Chinese leaders have put much thought into Taiwan, and the Taiwan invasion is only a matter of time.

-S

[XabbaRus]

My bet is that the Chinese are building their own carrier somewhere, maybe in different locations in modular form. I know people make fun of Russian and Chinese equipment but theyare no fools. In fact I bet quality wise the chinese might be quite good. I have read that license built Su-27s made in China are of better quality than Russian ones.

[Godalmighty83]

i thought the Chinese were simply studying the overall design to build there own and retrofit that ship as a trainer. makes more sense then pushing it into a combat status after years of neglect and so much missing equipment.

but its going to be another decade until the UK gets its 65,000t CVf's leaving us with the invincible's that are getting close to 30 years old, but they are (hopefully) better maintained.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

I have read that license built Su-27s made in China are of better quality than Russian ones.

I read something similar in the Taiwanese press, but I also read they have problems with handling the engines. My general impression is that the "simple" parts they can do quite well (just like cheap Chinese toys) compared to the Russians, who seem to take the philosophy that if a crude technique is adequate for an area, that's precisely the technique to be applied, but they still have problems with the complex.

[Oberon]

Yeah, I reckon Xabba's right, they may put this bucket of bolts to sea, if only to study the way it moves and what goes wrong on it, to prevent their own carrier from having the same problems. Chances are the Western powers will kick up a fair fuss and closely watch this carrier, and then probably only notice the other carrier at the last minute. These are the same guys that totally flatfooted the US with their last class of submarine they built. Now I know a carrier is somewhat bigger...but there are still ways... ;)

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

The varyag is actualy not 30 years old nearing it but hasnt hit it yet, the kuznetsov class are 60,000 tonne air craft carrying cruisers, but the chinese let her get in a bit of a state she needs four engines and four propellors.

Her SS-N-19 missiles can be taken out and hanger increased but as a first carrier well its a good one seeing as america started off with less and built up to what it is.

Well, it is not that the "aircraft carrying cruiser" is necessarily a bad idea, just that it was IMHO poorly implemented with Kuznetsov, leaving it a poorly defended cruiser and inefficient carrier for its mass.

The Kiev actually was truer to that doctrine in many ways - it had guns, torpedoes and an area defence SAM system as well as SSMs. If not for those crap Forgers... a case of plane bringing down carrier.

The -700s can stay - they are part of the doctrine, just move them more to the side so they don't block the extension of the hangar.

What the Kuznetsov really needs to achieve its original objective, however, is an area SAM system. Why didn't they just stuff a SA-N-6 (preferably the newer 48N6 variant) along with the SA-N-9 system...

[Kapitan]

The kuznetsov was origional built as the fifth kirov the design was changed to carrier during constion.

[Godalmighty83]

which is never a recipe for success. the military world should have learnt by now once you arrange something stick to it.

changing plans delayed the eurofighter, split the horizon destroyer group (which was the reason for the creation of the type 45's) and did much more.

[Kapitan]

the kuzzie can defend itself well it has an upgrade in SAM systems and also CIWS there was once plans to remove the SS-N-19 VLS system to extend the hanger but the plans never went through as they were seen as too expencive and the hull was too old to warrent the change and at the time the soviets were ready to start building of the ulyonsk class carriers however then the soviet union collapsed and that carrier too was scrapped.

The SS-N-19 system is mainly for self defence everything bar the aircraft on that ship in terms of weapons systems are for defence but the kuzzie does realy on escorts.

Today the russian navy plans to commission in two new CV's by 2020 however the plans may be extended just like the SSBN at the moment russia has plans for 12 borey SSBN's if funds permit then there could be as many as 16 Boreys come 2024 but by this time i suspect that a newer SSBN design will be in place.

So far the victor III and the Akula's are looking to be written off by 2015 replaced by the Sevdvinsk SS/GN also the oscars are looking to go being replaced by the now multi role sevdvinsk so far theres three that have been laid down and roumerd that one is almost fully ready for sea.

We know the kilo class SSK's are to be replaced by the more capible lada / amur class st petersburg is nearly operational kronstadt is nearing compleation and a third submarine is under construction.

Russia also plans to remove the slava and kirov class from service by 2020 also the sovremenny and udaloy's replacing them with two seprate classes of ships which plans have yet to be drawn up.

The krivacks will serve the remainder of thier lives they are frigates and its unlikely that they will be replaced, but recent shifts in a new type of frigate might well replace them and the nanchuka and also the remaining tranatul class.

Ships such as the AGI of the vishnya class will remain with the fleet until 2015 again unlikely to be replaced, the auxilaries such as the brezhina and boris chelkin again no plan for replacement just yet but the units there are now some 35 years old (my stepfather has commander brezhina and has commented its better off in the junk yard it hardly see's the sea).

So to recap:

2 new CV's maybe more
12 New SSBN's maybe up to 16
40 or more new DDG / FFG
12 new SSK's maybe also more
22 new SSN's or more
Possible for new frigate design
Possible for new auxilary design

Coast gaurd cutters and other patrol craft in build or planned

[Kapitan]

I will say after reviewing the Kuznetsov design it is very poor indeed, i hve found many flaws in the construction and design of the carrier i think the Russian navy would still be better suited to using the smaller Kiev class as it implements the whole self defence role alot better.

Putting a VLS system in the middle of the runway is in my opinion not the best idea, those hatches have been damaged by heavy seas many times before so whats a SU-27 going to do if it lands hard or crashed on them?

the lack of a catapult is a draw back it does mean the SU-27 and MIG-29 cant take off with a full payload, again the catapults cant be put into the ship because the missile tubes and VLS systems are in the way.

If the russians had gone with the "harrier" approach i think then yes this vessel could definatly be a force to be reconed with even though they use some of the best fighters in the world on this ship there is a big lack still and its a big one the aircraft that take off are very vulnreble.

the ship itself can choose either to defend itself or let the aircraft take off which means that it cannot sail alone theres a big confusion about the missile systems and where they are placed if an incoming missile was to be on final and a plane was on final the CIWS would hit the incoming plane !

I think the kuznetsov is all bark no bite but it still a capible vessel no matter and still can pack a punch, ive seen the vessel from a distance and even so its huge the missiles are huge the centre island is huge the whole ship is huge however the engines are small and so the ship is also underpowerd and only has four four bladed propellors where as the USN nimitz has four five bladed propellors.

In reality if the russian navy had two nimitz class carriers i think then totaly the russian navy would be a potent force, it has now got one operation carrier.

What i have learnt from the russian navy is that its not a carrier navy like the USA its a submarine navy all emphasis is on the submarines and they are the first units to recieve funding then its the kuznetsov and kirov then everything else.

I last saw the Kuznetsov in 2003 in murmansk in refit, and she was looking a bit worse for wear (bear in mind she had been sand blasted for repaint) but just too look at her and sum up her capibilitys i could have cried when it dawned on me here is one useless piece of junk. (not 100% true but still).

When the russian navy enters in its new carriers i hope the design is A) not rushed and B) suitible for the needs of the navy.

The plans so far are for two 65,000 tonne carriers to operate SU-27 and MIG-29 and possibly a new aircraft also to operate the KA-27 and KA-31 helix with the capibilitys to deck handle the MI-24 Hind gun ships.

The carriers i would immagine to be on the same scale or bigger than the kuznetsov and the displacement may well go up to 85,000 tonnes its dependant on the design station that plans these vessels.

I would like to see a missile system such as a SS-N-22 VLS launched ship defence system and SA-N-9 SAM missile systems and also newer versions of the CIWS systems as well as better protected sensors and at least an attempt to start with stealth tech.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

I will say after reviewing the Kuznetsov design it is very poor indeed, i hve found many flaws in the construction and design of the carrier

You have found? Wow, if you got any blueprints or diagrammatics of the carrier, could you quietly shuffle me some? :D

i think the Russian navy would still be better suited to using the smaller Kiev class as it implements the whole self defence role alot better.

I agree - do something like the Gorshkov refit they plan to do for India.

Putting a VLS system in the middle of the runway is in my opinion not the best idea, those hatches have been damaged by heavy seas many times before so whats a SU-27 going to do if it lands hard or crashed on them?

Well, the silos were supposed to be from those on the submarines - they even have to be flooded, so from the Kursk experience I don't think they'd blow very hard.

the lack of a catapult is a draw back it does mean the SU-27 and MIG-29 cant take off with a full payload, again the catapults cant be put into the ship because the missile tubes and VLS systems are in the way.

Which system was in the way...

I think the kuznetsov is all bark no bite but it still a capible vessel no matter and still can pack a punch, ive seen the vessel from a distance and even so its huge the missiles are huge the centre island is huge the whole ship is huge however the engines are small and so the ship is also underpowerd and only has four four bladed propellors where as the USN nimitz has four five bladed propellors.

The nice saving grace is the huge effort it takes to get an extra knot, so even underpowered (I think it was the same engines on the Kiev) it can make 29.

I would like to see a missile system such as a SS-N-22 VLS launched ship defence system and SA-N-9 SAM missile systems and also newer versions of the CIWS systems as well as better protected sensors and at least an attempt to start with stealth tech.

I'd either modernize the SS-N-19, which is a very potent system, or just go to smaller cruise missiles like the Klub. And why do you want the SA-N-9? We are going for the carrier-cruiser concept. There are Russian missiles like the 9M96E2 which don't take up that much more space and have 120km range. Supposedly it has 1km min range, so you don't have to complement it with a last ditch PD missile. Navalize that and put it on the ship...

[PeriscopeDepth]

The SS-N-19 system is mainly for self defence everything bar the aircraft on that ship in terms of weapons systems are for defence but the kuzzie does realy on escorts.
Not true. The SS-N-19 is the most potent long range anti surface weapon the Kuz class posesses. Think about it. 50 aircarft MAX, assuming they are all wired for air to surface. First of all, long range with any useful strike load is off the table right away. You said it yourself, no catapult. And not enough aircraft to buddy tank with and still have a strike more potent than the SS-N-19s. But let's assume these problems don't exist for the sake of argument...Now of that 50 (assuming they're all operational and it's not a problem to get the whole wing airborne at the same time) you can't send them all. You need escort for the strike and CAP for back home. Figure 12 aircraft MINIMUM for CAP duties. 12 more for escorting the package. That leaves you with 26 Moskits if none of the strikers end up swimming before they launch (kind of unlikely if they're playing against a US CVBG...er CSG IMO). And that means diddly against a US CSG, a coordinated SS-N-19 strike is necessary for half a chance of hitting anything. Put it'll probably suit the PLAN just fine for plinking at the ROC navy...

You see, the Kuznetsov class is purely defensive. Aircraft included. Because that what it was meant to do. Shield bastions. Not play viking (despite the name of the second in class :)) raider against the USN.

And wasn't this thread about the Chinese getting a new carrier, not the Russian Navy?

[Kapitan]

NO ! i said the kuznetsov uses the SS-N-19 purely for defence not that the missile is for defence.

The kuznetsov carrier varyag will give china something its never had before and well i think it will fail seeing as they dont know how to use them, and its no good asking the pacific fleet cause they havnt had a carrier since the kiev's.

[Kapitan]

I will say after reviewing the Kuznetsov design it is very poor indeed, i hve found many flaws in the construction and design of the carrier

You have found? Wow, if you got any blueprints or diagrammatics of the carrier, could you quietly shuffle me some? :D

i think the Russian navy would still be better suited to using the smaller Kiev class as it implements the whole self defence role alot better.

I agree - do something like the Gorshkov refit they plan to do for India.

Putting a VLS system in the middle of the runway is in my opinion not the best idea, those hatches have been damaged by heavy seas many times before so whats a SU-27 going to do if it lands hard or crashed on them?

Well, the silos were supposed to be from those on the submarines - they even have to be flooded, so from the Kursk experience I don't think they'd blow very hard.

the lack of a catapult is a draw back it does mean the SU-27 and MIG-29 cant take off with a full payload, again the catapults cant be put into the ship because the missile tubes and VLS systems are in the way.

Which system was in the way...

I think the kuznetsov is all bark no bite but it still a capible vessel no matter and still can pack a punch, ive seen the vessel from a distance and even so its huge the missiles are huge the centre island is huge the whole ship is huge however the engines are small and so the ship is also underpowerd and only has four four bladed propellors where as the USN nimitz has four five bladed propellors.

The nice saving grace is the huge effort it takes to get an extra knot, so even underpowered (I think it was the same engines on the Kiev) it can make 29.

I would like to see a missile system such as a SS-N-22 VLS launched ship defence system and SA-N-9 SAM missile systems and also newer versions of the CIWS systems as well as better protected sensors and at least an attempt to start with stealth tech.

I'd either modernize the SS-N-19, which is a very potent system, or just go to smaller cruise missiles like the Klub. And why do you want the SA-N-9? We are going for the carrier-cruiser concept. There are Russian missiles like the 9M96E2 which don't take up that much more space and have 120km range. Supposedly it has 1km min range, so you don't have to complement it with a last ditch PD missile. Navalize that and put it on the ship...


Yes i can see the whole idea of navalising that missile system, but for the catapult problem the SS-N-19 VLS tubes are in the way.

I would put the klub on the ship rather than the big bulky SS-N-19 but in saying that the SS-N-19 is one of the best ASM missiles money can buy.

The blue prints issue see the PM.

[Godalmighty83]

If the russians had gone with the "harrier" approach i think then yes this vessel could definatly be a force to be reconed with .

well they spent a fair whack designing the yak 141 to end up doing nothing with it.

[Kapitan]

Yeah they were on the kievs they were good planes just not very efective.