What makes a WWI UBoat-Sim interesting?

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by Hitman

(It toook a really long time to dive)

But this flaw was ruled out pretty early in the war(towards the end of 1914).

. Considering that the U-Boots usually had a safe diving depth of 30-40 metres maximum,

U 1-8 30 meters Since U 9 at least 50 meters the later boats 75 meters. But the u-boat gone sometimes much deeper than that, the deeper diving u-boats to something like 139 meters when they were forced to.

it was not common to hit them, BUT it was easy to ake them loose trim and sink without control, until they crushed. Even in WW2 U-Boots where normally sunk by DCs not because of direct impact, but instead because of the heavy push the boot received, which many times catapulted it to the depths with no control, or to the surface.

Never heared of it not even in one of the countless stories i readed so far. What are your sources ?

I actualy doubt it given the weight of an u-boat and a wabo explosion not just give the u-boat a push, but when the gas bubble collaps, a pull again.

In WWI i readed several times that the wabo detonations caused rudder james and the boat couldn't be controleld safely anymore and had to surface then and give up.

As you already said, trimming and handling a submerged U-Boot was VERY difficult, so even if the ASW tactics and tools were rudimentary, the U-Boots could be sunk because their developement and control also was.

The trimming and handling in WWI was pretty equal to the WWII counterparts. If we talk here about the more matured designs in WWI.

The fight is therefore equally balanced in WW1 as in WW2

Deamon

[Hellcat]

Well Deamon, my 3d modeling is only a side hobby what you see on my website is the extent of what I have made. However with the proper plan views and such I can make a decent low detail model.

My new found interest in world war I naval warfare is due to its under appreciation in the main stream media. What is really missing is the story of what these men accomplished with which at the time was bleeding edge technology. I'm dissapointed lately with the focus on world war II, what about the other major conflicts of the last 300 years? What I'm afraid of is that soon the youth will not know of the Korean War or the war of 1812 for that matter. The importance of past history can not be understated... (and not just warfare!) Now I may be rambling but we need projects like these to encourage others to read/research and ask questions. I'll but honest, I knew very little of the operational use of the submarine during World War I, however now I'll fill out the gap in my library.

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by Hellcat

Well Deamon, my 3d modeling is only a side hobby what you see on my website is the extent of what I have made. However with the proper plan views and such I can make a decent low detail model.

I was quite a Airwolf fan as i was a Kid back then. I even painted it back then on my good ole amiga with delux paint. Man that were times

My new found interest in world war I naval warfare is due to its under appreciation in the main stream media. What is really missing is the story of what these men accomplished with which at the time was bleeding edge technology.

The good things is it leaves some nichies for the indies :hmm:

I'm dissapointed lately with the focus on world war II, what about the other major conflicts of the last 300 years? What I'm afraid of is that soon the youth will not know of the Korean War or the war of 1812 for that matter.

Yes. I think the main stream doesn't like to change so fast. This forgotten wars are good nichies for indis. They should take care of it. I see games/sims as a great way of learning. I mostly don't play games where don't learn something or don't train any skills. Of the same kinde is my sim supposed to become. It will have a stronger emphasise on edjutainment. It's a good way to teach people about a subject.

The importance of past history can not be understated... (and not just warfare!) Now I may be rambling but we need projects like these to encourage others to read/research and ask questions.

I just made the first step to dig out the forgotten WWI u-boat war. I don't intend to stick just with u-boats but i also want to go through surface ships as well. Not neccesserily the big guns but i want to go through the nichies like torpedoboats and for example merchant raiders, what about raiders ? that would be quite a different experiance. Where your not surviving by firepower and speed but by being camouflaged and being tricky, where you have to think of how can you fool the blockade lines to get through them once they stop you. It might also be interesting to command a merchant u-boat and have to make your way through all the obstacles shake of prosecuters.

I'll but honest, I knew very little of the operational use of the submarine during World War I, however now I'll fill out the gap in my library.

Than you met the right guy. I will take care of it. :|\

You might have some fun with my virtual academy once it's done one day. I will put my knowledge in to it.

Deamon

[Hitman]

Never heared of it not even in one of the countless stories i readed so far. What are your sources ?

Iron coffins by Herbert A. Werner

Werner explains how in various ocasions his boat almost got lost due to a crash dive or a depth charge push that unbalanced the trimming and left the U-Boot on a heavy tilt angle

[Deamon]

I just looked through my several hundreds books and must realized that i still don't have it. Eiserne Särge must be the german title right ?

Deamon

[Beerman]

Hi Deamon

Iron Coffins has ISBN # 0-553-12290-8
Hope this helps

Beerman

[Deamon]

Thanks i found the german aquivalent.

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by subwulf

What makes a WWI UBoat-Sim interesting?

1]
Manual shooting, are you, your periscope and your Whiz Wheel......... and the target of course

2]
Surface attack with deck gun.

Originally Posted by subwulf

- There was no way for the destroyers to find a dived uboat.

Not sure, Kpt. Johanness Spiess tells how DDs prey on them, the first feeling about those "bombs" as they call depth charges in that time, if i dont remember bad they had pasive sonars in that age. :hmm:

Originally Posted by subwulf

- It was very difficult to trim and handle a dived uboat. being on the exact periscope depth depended more from luck than from the skill of the uboat-crew.

Agree, Kpt. Johanness Spiess tells some time they was ner to surface accidentally in an attack by a bad trim after torpedo launch.

Originally Posted by subwulf

of course, the german uboats during wwi were very effective and a lot of ships sunk by them.

The U-35 ww1, deck gun was the most effective naval weapon of any time and any war.

Originally Posted by subwulf

but in regarding forward to this uboat-sim: playing a subsim where the result of a battle depends more on luck than on skill or what ever, that's quite boring, isn't it?

Not agree, good luck is alway present at any war, but they needs a high level skill to manual shooting, and big balls to attack on surface, specially with those "trap" ships.

Originally Posted by subwulf

but of course i don't want to say that this project is bad. of course not.

Better because no much people will believe you ! :rotfl:

Best regards, Red.

[Deamon]

Ahoy redwine

Originally Posted by Redwine

1]
Manual shooting, are you, your periscope and your Whiz Wheel......... and the target of course

What do you mean by Whiz Wheel ?

Deamon

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by Deamon

Ahoy redwine

What do you mean by Whiz Wheel ?

Deamon

Sorry Deamon..... i forget this post, December 3 2005 and you have not response......

Why you dont send to me a private message ?

Well i know you have your response yet, in the WW! Whislist post........

I enter this topic to put i love a WW1 sim due to Manual Shooting and extensive deck gun use........

But i wrote that yet .......... :rotfl:

Sorry, my excuses.

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by Redwine

Why you dont send to me a private message ?

Done

I enter this topic to put i love a WW1 sim due to Manual Shooting and extensive deck gun use........

Deckgun wise a WWI subsim have alot to offer. Many boats had usualy 2 deckguns and some up to 4. This makes alot of noise

Deamon

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by Deamon

Done

Received, i will help in any way i can, but not misunderstand, i am not a programer and have not enough skills that you are needing.
I am only a "harhead" roman who obtain more by tenacity and not surrender than by inteligence .... :rotfl:

When i put some thing in my aim reticle i hit it disregarding the time it take :rotfl:

Originally Posted by Deamon

Deckgun wise a WWI subsim have alot to offer. Many boats had usualy 2 deckguns and some up to 4. This makes alot of noise

Deamon

Even in sims as SH2 or SH3 i rarely shoot a torp if i have deck gun ammo.

Even in scorted convoys i manueuver to take advantage and be able to sueface and shot the cargos with may deck gun, even asumming the Dds wil discover me, ........to the hell with them, i love my deck gun !!! :rotfl:

When they become so near, 3km ....i submerge.

I made in last days some mods to improve my deck gun use.

I made better and more visible tracer shells, now i am able to watch the tracer shell along it all travell, and then i need no take hands on map or peri or UZO to adjust deck gun range.

With 2 or 3 shoots i was able to adjust deck gun range visualy !!!

Plus i am making more spectacular gun flahses, and i am not agree with the shells power.

I increased them.

Why for ?

I have some books from WW1 Kapitan Johannes Spiess, Submarine War with no Restrictions, and Submarines.

The Golden Horse Shoe, from Therence Robertson, wich tells about the history of Kapitan Otto Krestchmer.

There they tells how they stops the ships, let the crew to evacuate the ship, give them, ron and clothes ...covers and more to the cold nights, maps and orientation to reach nearest coast..... and then sinks the ship.

Those was warriors !

Ships was aborded and scluted by sclutting boms, orr when there was warning of enemy presence near, they shoot the water line with the deck gun.

In many places on the web i read, not too much hits in the waterline are needed.

Just imagine the hull of those ships was a thinny plate or iron.
One or two hit in each compartement in the water line, will produce an uncontrolable flooding and terminate the ship.

Some mods in SH2 and SH3 require 80/100 hits to terminate a ship.

It is near to 1 ton of explosives in the water line.... :hmm: about 5 torps......... :hmm:

I think so a dozen or dozen and half of hits in the waterline must to flooding the ship ........

Any way, the mod i done require about 35 hits to terminate a C2, it is more aceptable for many more people.



I love the deck gun use, and it is a missed point in most subsims.

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by Redwine

Received, i will help in any way i can, but not misunderstand, i am not a programer and have not enough skills that you are needing.
I am only a "harhead" roman who obtain more by tenacity and not surrender than by inteligence .... :rotfl:

When i put some thing in my aim reticle i hit it disregarding the time it take :rotfl:

There is alot to do in developing the IUF curriculum. Alot tacticaly and operationaly. Basicaly what you did in your tutotial. Basicaly i want a real subsim with a real challange for the real man. I'm tired of this u-boat games

Realy they sickens me. You never can try all this things you could do in real. And bugs and flaws just everywhere, like leaks in a heavy damaged sub.

Anyway that's where i think you might get involved in it if you like. We can discuss the different aspects of it and you might bring in your ideas and develope some of this concepts that are now just in their beginnings. Do you think you would like to work also on other concepts besides manual shooting, like u-boat tactics and operational procedures, manouvering, military navigation, tactical doctrines and stuff ?

Would you maybe also like to deal in equal depth with navigation ?

I made a very comprehensive plan of the curriculum and it has to be developed into brief lessons. Partialy there are already short lessons but to the biggest part it's just an index right now. But till the release it must be developed to an u-boat bible. The ultimate all encompassing guide to become a qualified u-boat commander.

It also is supposed to contain a most comprehensive technical documentation that is heavily illustrated with renderings of my models(I can give you examples later). Thats where my technical documents are supposed to flow in. At the end it's supposed to become a WWI u-boat library that covers ALL subjects including all periferal subjects. So history, technology(u-boat anatomy), working principals, tactics, operational proccedures, meteorology, oceanography, hydroacoustics, navigation, nautics and and and...

You see it's a life task for me.

In some way i want to force the player to pass the whole academy. For example the u-boat badges the player will get only if he passes the academy successfuly.

Still it must be entertaining. So a concept must be developed that integrates the comprehensive lessons with entertainment without compromising realism. I want to put most of my informations in to it. That is a huge task, becose it requires comprehensive researches before, let alone the developement. That's why i came to the idea to make a prerelease with a minimal developed sim that is developed just enough to allow all of this training. So that more resources becomes free to go in to the curriculum lessons and corresponding training missions. Alternatively a "light" version of the academy could be done for the prerelease as a sort of prototype before the realy big one come. But at the end the academy shall get a historical and museal value. But the general design is already finished and a roadmap is there.

Can you imagine to get involved deeper in to it what surely requires some long term dedication ?

Originally Posted by Deamon

Even in sims as SH2 or SH3 i rarely shoot a torp if i have deck gun ammo.

Even in scorted convoys i manueuver to take advantage and be able to sueface and shot the cargos with may deck gun, even asumming the Dds wil discover me, ........to the hell with them, i love my deck gun !!! :rotfl:

When they become so near, 3km ....i submerge.

Then you will feel fully at home in IUF. Only in the first major release though, since the academy edition will feature only U 1 and it had no deck guns at all.

I hope you don't mind.

I have some books from WW1 Kapitan Johannes Spiess, Submarine War with no Restrictions, and Submarines.

From WWI ? Where have you found them ? Are this old ones ?

Those was warriors !

Yes and i want put the player in their shoes. As their training in the academy progress, i want to put them in to hairy situations to strengthen them and let them feel like aces afterwards

In many places on the web i read, not too much hits in the waterline are needed.

Yes that's ture.

Just imagine the hull of those ships was a thinny plate or iron.
One or two hit in each compartement in the water line, will produce an uncontrolable flooding and terminate the ship.

Yes, it's just a question of time then, till it sinks.

Some mods in SH2 and SH3 require 80/100 hits to terminate a ship.

In the waterline ?

I think so a dozen or dozen and half of hits in the waterline must to flooding the ship ........

I think so, depends of course also on the size and construction of a ship.

I love the deck gun use, and it is a missed point in most subsims.

Somewhere in the fare future i would like to add the project 50 or 47 for fictive scenarios which were designed to carry 4 155mm guns. Especialy the project 50 with it's steam engines making up to 25kn should be interesting then for you

Deamon

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by Deamon

Can you imagine to get involved deeper in to it what surely requires some long term dedication ?

Yes i know, it take about one year of my free time to make only one mod, the Hardcore TDC Mod in its 7 versions and the tutorial, and when i finished the Wiz Wheel mod..... SH3 was released and no frind plays SH2 anymore :rotfl: .........i can imagine the lot of job to do a complete sim.

Originally Posted by Deamon

From WWI ? Where have you found them ? Are this old ones ?

I let my data in some used books stores and they call me when have some ones of my interest.

Those books mentioned was printed in 1930, 1956 and 1957, they are in spanish.

Originally Posted by Deamon

Yes and i want put the player in their shoes.

I remember in the "Golden Horseshoe", by Terence Robetson, he tells in 10 july 1940, Kap. Otto Krestchmer spot a cargo ship, it was the stonian "Merissar", he stop the ship and give the order to the crew to abandon the ship to sink it later.

When the enemy crew abandon the ship and the life boats was gone, one of his crew tells him for look with the binoculars to the boats, there was 8 women onboard the life boats......, he reach the boats and give the order to go onboard a new time and follow travel..... he dont sink the ship.

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by Redwine

Yes i know, it take about one year of my free time to make only one mod, the Hardcore TDC Mod in its 7 versions and the tutorial, and when i finished the Wiz Wheel mod..... SH3 was released and no frind plays SH2 anymore :rotfl: .........i can imagine the lot of job to do a complete sim.

I can tell you that. I needed 3 years to just prepare the project. You show quite ome dedication

But you kinda missed my questions! I hope there is a not to big language barrier. I also made you an offer two times via PM but you haven't answered them :hmm:

But never minde. I won't bother you with it anymore.

Originally Posted by Deamon

I let my data in some used books stores and they call me when have some ones of my interest.

Those books mentioned was printed in 1930, 1956 and 1957, they are in spanish.

I'm woundering whether this are translations from germany, since i don't know such books in germany ?

Deamon