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Old 04-16-2009, 12:16 PM   #31
Rockin Robbins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ichso View Post
My point didn't was that your tutorial is bad or too easy, I just wanted to find a good starting sentence to introduce my point



Yep, I know. I usually just make a mark at some empty spot of the map defining this as my position and start plotting target bearings and ranges from there as well as tracking my own movements from there on.
I can still do that, just grab another empty spot on the map instead of where my sub marker is. This came to my mind when I already had sent the last post, oops

Then again my first attack failed big time. I just wanted to do it as being used to from SH3 but the torpedo must have sailed happily into nowhere. Must have set some of the settings wrong where the TDC differs from the u-boat's one. I will take a closer look at the tutorials again to figure that out. Skipped some steps when watching the first time because it seemed very similiar to what I had read in the SH3 forums some time ago.
Dick O'Kane not only seems similar, it is entirely based on Fast-90. I was innocently speaking with gutted and aaronblood, who both hailed from U-Boat land, and searching for a way to execute a right angle constant bearing attack with the same geometry as the Fast-90.

I had quit SH3 before I learned manual targeting there because it ate a couple of careers that I had invested a couple of weeks into. I was a bit miffed and then had the opportunity to pick up a copy of SH4 at a good price. It NEVER forgot my career and I hadn't gone back. After talking with aaronblood and gutted I jumped back into a U-Boat long enough to learn Fast-90 and then started searching for ways to overcome the fleet boat's lack of direct link between TDC and periscope.

The result was the Dick O'Kane method, a plausibly historical method developed independently of reality. A real fleet boat could have managed an attack exactly like it. It's safe to say that the sugar boats had little choice but to do something very like the Dick O'Kane attack. It does a very good job at highlighting the difference between firing an American and a German torpedo. Dick O'Kane/Fast-90 is the best way to manage the transition between Fleet boat and U-Boat simply because so much of Fast-90 feels familiar to fleet boaters and so much of Dick O'Kane feels familiar to U-Boaters.

Similarly, John P Cromwell could be adapted to a Fast-45 U-Boat attack that I might just work up since it's been a while since I wrote a U-Boat tutorial and I love to make those to tweak those people who like to try to paint me as a U-Boat hating fleet boat fanboi. I can see the whole attack in my head right now. It's pretty elegant and no calculating AoB will be necessary.

Just doing my part to encourage amity between American and German target killers.:rotfl:
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Old 04-16-2009, 01:52 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins View Post
Similarly, John P Cromwell could be adapted to a Fast-45 U-Boat attack that I might just work up...
What you call "Fast-45" was addressed in the original "Fast-90" documentation as "Advanced Fast-90" and it applied to any approach angle from 0 to 180.
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Old 04-17-2009, 07:03 AM   #33
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What you call "Fast-45" was addressed in the original "Fast-90" documentation as "Advanced Fast-90" and it applied to any approach angle from 0 to 180.
Oh, I would do my customary oversimplification hatchet job and reduce it to a "wham bam thank you ma'am" short list of steps without all Wazoo's theory and precision.
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Old 04-17-2009, 08:39 AM   #34
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Oh, I would do my customary oversimplification hatchet job and reduce it to a "wham bam thank you ma'am" short list of steps without all Wazoo's theory and precision.
Have you ever tried Fast-90 in Uboat missions? Not sure how much more you could actually simplify it. ...barring possibly not using the TDC.

1. Aim scope wire on 90° beam to target TC (regardless of your approach angle)
2. Set AoB at either 90°P or 90°S and lock TDC.

Then fire when ready...
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Old 04-17-2009, 04:10 PM   #35
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Oh you've got the instructions, all right. But just like Wazoo's, nobody knows what they are. My aim is that when I get done beginners understand and use the technique. I don't bring any special knowledge to the process at all, and anyone who thinks I do is mistaken. I specialize in instruction and techniques for beginners in manual targeting. What I bring is an ability to communicate to beginners at a level where they understand what to do and understand the process well enough to reason for themselves that my instructions are valid. THEN they can introduce wrinkles of their own, refine the process for more precision, adapt for angles other than 45º and 90º, and whatever else. But that's more advanced stuff. I'm building confidence that they are capable of manual targeting. Only confidence allows you to go forward and perfect your skill.

I am more a translator than a theoretician. OK, I'm a cheerleader too. My stock in trade is language, not the science behind the attack techniques. That's YOUR specialty and without you and several others I would have done NONE of this.
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Old 04-17-2009, 08:31 PM   #36
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I'm neither a gifted mathematician (mediocre would even be a stretch) nor someone who delves into the intricate details of attack theory. I just played SH3 and read a few books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins View Post
Oh you've got the instructions, all right. But just like Wazoo's, nobody knows what they are.
On my 10th patrol with U-53 (an SH3 patrol) I explain, I think in fairly simple terms, exactly how to setup the TDC for fast-90 attack (see time 17:38). I don't think it's too hard for newbs to digest... and I imagine anyone who reads it would know exactly what my instructions are. It's 100% portable to the SH4 Uboat Missions addon.

But you've got a wide following with the DoK stuff and you like to spend time creating movie tutorials and so forth, so sure, you should continue on with doing the sort of things you like to do. Namely, helping newbs sink ships.

At the moment, I kinda like tinkering with my maneuvering board, so that's where I'll probably continue to focus my efforts.
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Old 04-17-2009, 10:13 PM   #37
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Just remember, aaronblood, I'm lurking around making stupid mistakes to pounce upon. You have a valuable function in keeping me straight and not misleading any of these newbs!

And I'd be happy to link to anything you've written on any aspect of manual targeting. This thread isn't just for me, it's for anyone who wants to lend a hand. So, I'll follow and I urge others to follow your post on your 10th patrol with U-53 because for somebody your explanation will be the one that makes the difference between getting it or getting frustrated.

My goal is to keep very frustrated people playing the game, whether SH4, SH3 or SH4UBM: whether playing in a U-Boat or fleet boat. I have you and gutted to blame for getting me started in this insanity!





Last edited by Rockin Robbins; 07-17-2017 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 05-09-2009, 11:33 AM   #38
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First manual sinking....

Using the Dick O'Kane method.... Night Attack from ~900yds submerged... Freighter...

However, it took me four tries with a break to rewatch the DOK video for the 2nd time today...

For some reason, my torps kept going about 5 degrees in Front of the target - only thing I can figure is I somehow messed up setting the shooting bearing in the periscope... Well, there was the one time I shot behind the ship because the Exec entered the AOB wrong...

Anyways, after rewatching the video and writing things down step by step, I hit with 3 of 4 torps!

The one question I have is in the video RR points the 'scope at the target and waits for the 'crew' to identify - this never happened for me, any ideas? I am running TMO, RSRD, Max Optics, Websters Ship Manuvering, Crew Qtrs for TMO, & ROW Sound v9.


Update; Well, I seem to still be shooting in front of my target by a few degrees (or .5-1 target ship length) when aiming at the middle of the target. When shooting at a freighter I am using a 10deg lead angle and calulating the shooting bearing like this with target approach from my port 360-10=350deg and like this with target approach from my starboard 360+10=10deg. I then point my periscope down that bearing, click so it is locked, and then send distance/range to the TDC again. Things look OK on the target map, but No Joy ...
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:05 AM   #39
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Shawn, if you're missing ahead, you most certainly have the speed estimated too high for some reason. Missing ahead is not easy to do, so it is the easiest to diagnose. Go over how to determine the target speed again.

Identifying by keyboard command is part of Trigger Maru and my TMOkeys mod, where you lock on a target, press shift-i and a handy crewman eventually id's the target. Identifying the target is NOT NECESSARY with the Dick O'Kane procedure, and was only done to make the video more interesting. People enjoy plugging a tanker!

Keep at it. You know you're close to making it work. Good shooting so far!
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:52 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins View Post
Shawn, if you're missing ahead, you most certainly have the speed estimated too high for some reason. Missing ahead is not easy to do, so it is the easiest to diagnose. Go over how to determine the target speed again.
You are spot on RR!

I replayed the mis-ahead situation multiple times trying all kinds of different things. I finally realized that the only possible issue was the speed setting and what I was doing wrong that was affecting the speed setting...

Basically, I would get the speed very early and plot the course. From that I would rush ahead and get into position. Since it was night, I got sloppy and stayed on the surface where they spotted me and started the lazy zig-zag and ping away at me so I would dive to periscope depth. Once it finally dawned on me (took a a while) that the zig-zag was messing up the solution, I re-measured their speed in the zig-zag and it was 50% of what I had before. I adjusted the new speed, an viola! What a dope!

Side note, I actually seem to miss less (rarely) and have far fewer duds now then when I played with auto targeting! Setting up for the manual DOK is second nature now - need to work on the sonar only...

Now I just need to learn the best places to aim so I don't use so many torpedoes per ship...
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Old 05-12-2009, 12:18 PM   #41
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Generally, I'll allocate two per target, one a quarter of the way back from the bow or aimed at the first crane and the second a quarter of the way forward of the stern or at the aft crane. If that doesn't sink 'em it stops them to be mopped up later.
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Old 05-13-2009, 04:49 AM   #42
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Hi,
I think you all know the problem of setting up an attack when your target is still far away. AoB can be estimated roughly at best and therefore the ship's course also.
Without radar for long distance range estimation you would usually have to get pretty close (something about medium range) before you can make any precise assumptions about your target's movement. Here is a little workaround, that will allows one to estimate the target course when it is still far away. It's more like a little trick than a complex technique so it might be well known already. But let's start:

I got in front of the little convoy to do the rest of the approach from beneath the surface. The approach was already on the way for ~20min now.


First thing to do is to mark your own position on some empty spot on the map and use it as starting point for your observations.

Keep course, take a reading of the ship's bearing (don't forget to calculate true bearing from that) and draw a line from your position onwards in the direction of the true bearing to target. The length doesn't matter as we don't know the range to the ship yet.

From all the previous observations when getting in front of your target on the surface or from using passive sonar you should have already gotten an idea how fast the ship is traveling. Then you approximate it's speed which is mostly a thing of experience values here.
You should be able to tell whether it is moving at fast, medium or slow speed. But what that means for the actual ship depends on your judgement. A slow moving passenger/freighter convoy for instance, I would estimate as ~6.5kn from my previous experiences, so I'm using this value here.

You then wait a fixed period of time. In this example I'm using 5 minutes.
Use the stopwatch and after this time expired let the stopwatch keep running. Otherwise you won't be able to continue tracking your own movements afterwards.
While doing this there's enough time to estimate and draw you position after 5min. Here I'm moving at slow speed underwater = ~1kn, meaning that I will travel ~150y (heading south).

When the 5min have passed, take the second reading and draw another line only now originating from your new position.

So far nothing new. What I'm gonna use now is the fact that the target's speed will have it travel ~1100 yards during this time. See the nomograph on the right for this.
Now, with both bearing lines in place you only need to pick *any* spot on the first line and draw a line that will end on the second bearing line and has the lengh of 1100y.

Note that the first spot you picked there is most likely not the actual position of the target (relative to yours) because we don't make any attempt to get the range yet. The only thing that's important here is that the speed estimation is roughly correct. (And that your drawings are o.k. of course ).
But after encountering many many freighters at a speed of ~6.5kn (when moving at slow) you would accept this as a reasonable base for these estimations.

Here is an image of my in-game nav map to show what I mean.


The small line with length 150y is the way I travelled during those 5 mins and the lower circle shows the spot I picked arbitrarily for the target ship.
The target's course line reads something like 310° and when the vessel gets close enough to do a reliable range estimation you can draw it's real course line (relative to your position at least).

Knowing the course allows you to position yourself precisely, set a course perpendicular to the one of your target (for fast 90 or dick o kane).
Also the target AoB is then only one step away, especially when using an AoB-wheel.

Hope it's not all old news, just figured it might be helpful in some situations.

happy sailing
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Old 05-13-2009, 12:18 PM   #43
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Neat application for optical course determination. I might figure out a possible range of course, say from a convoy speed of seven knots to four or five knots. This would yield two possible convoy courses. Maneuvering yourself to take advantage of either, the real position compared to the two possibilities will allow you to refine your convoy's speed.
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Old 05-14-2009, 02:22 AM   #44
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Very good ichso, nice explanation. I have watched and studied the many tutorials on 100% realism but they (at least the ones I have discovered) all deal with the short range final delivery, not the long range approach. I could not figure out a reliable way to predict the target's course. I will definately try this out. (been schooled again!)
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:58 AM   #45
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I still say the "realism" and "map updates off" cannot be rightly put in the same sentence. The game's rendering of map updates off corresponds to driving your car with a paper bag over your head. It may be possible. It definitely would demonstrate great skill. But there is no realism there.

Real sub captains did not pause during the attack, go below to a blank chart and work out the entire solution themselves. Their radar gave MUCH more precise ranges than our radar screen without map updates. As a matter of fact, it was more accurate than when we have map updates ON because they had a digital range readout.

They also had many tools we do not have to work out solutions, bearing rate charts and plots, stadimeter plots, lots of specialized slide rules. We don't have the resources to be able to single-handedly run a plot and call it realism. Check out the Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual and see what realism looks like. It ain't our game with map updates off.

It is true that the stock plotting system, while great for learing the ropes, gives the captain WAY too much information. But that is not a decent rationale for tossing the whole thing overboard. The TMO plotting system is the best we have at rendering appropriately selected information without providing "cheats." The only exception is the hardwired too-perfect rendering of positions of visual targets. If you just don't measure from them you'll be fine.

Hope SH5 does better!
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