SUBSIM Radio Room Forums


SUBSIM: The Web's #1 BBS for all submarine and naval simulations since 1997

Go Back   SUBSIM Radio Room Forums > Silent Hunter 3 - 4 - 5 > Silent Hunter 5 > Silent Hunter Online
Forget password? Reset here

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-20-2015, 11:57 PM   #16
GoldenRivet
Subsim Aviator
 
GoldenRivet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 8,446
Downloads: 140
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Stevens View Post
My 2 cents: Ubisoft put their backs into SH3 and SH4, and were on the way with SH5 before their resources were exhausted before completion. Say what you will about them, they gave us the best WWII submarine simulations, really the only WWII subsims, since 1997.

Making a high fidelity simulation that will please just a fraction of the high demands and expectations of the customers is resource intensive, and that means expensive. When the sales don't add up to a profit, well, there's no business in losing money.
I would agree with you on SH3... i felt like they developed SH4 anticipating that SH3 folks would buy it just because.

but your quote about business is on the money (no pun intended)

The next big submarine Sim that will meet the demands of users wish lists... likely will be crowd funded
__________________
GoldenRivet is online   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2015, 03:33 AM   #17
TorpX
Silent Hunter
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,993
Downloads: 153
Uploads: 11
Default

I think most of us understand these game are not going to be perfect, and we can't have everything on our wish lists.

However, an acceptable sub sim should have, at a minimum, all the features that SH1 had, and be an improvement over that which preceded it. SH4 failed in these respects. For example, it lacks SD radar (SH1 had it), and was little improved over SH3 (weather problems and AI just as bad).

TorpX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2015, 05:26 AM   #18
GoldenRivet
Subsim Aviator
 
GoldenRivet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 8,446
Downloads: 140
Uploads: 0


Default

the bottom line is though, and i think this is a point neal was trying to make:

Simulations in general, and more specifically submarine simulations are a really niche market. With scores of people diving into massively multiplayer games, first person shooters and real time strategy games... its easy to develop success with a good product in those markets. So when you put a quality product into the FPS market like the call of duty franchise, lots of people buy it, and your budget for call of duty 2 gets bigger, call of duty 2 sells like hot cakes you get a massive budget for the 3rd edition... before you know it, the latest entry to the series has a budget, advertising campaign and all the hype and anticipation of a summer blockbuster hollywood action film.

Submarine sims, even a REALLY good one just does not generate the same kind of return. so while the hottest FPS game in development gets all the support it needs, the developer generally puts the dev team for Silent Hunter 6 in the back storage closet and says "Deliver something playable before xxx deadline" and thats as good as it will get.

Subsimmers are a different breed. and im not telling you guys anything yuo dont know.

my stepson was watching me play SH3 and he is a hard core gamer. XBOX, Playstation and PC... he plays various types of games from first person shooters to sports games to real time strategy.

he watched me for a good 30 minutes with my little circle racing across the map screen. finally i spotted a convoy, lined up in ambush position, plotted out an attack plot on the map screen, entered the parameters into the TDC, took my final readings though the scope, tweaked a couple of TDC entries and let a spread of 2 torpedoes go. The fish found their mark with a spectacular series of explosions following. the ship split in half and slipped beneath the waves. the escorts gave chase and the pinging, depth charging, cat and mouse game ensued.

he watched in silence through the whole ordeal. I escaped the escorts and returned to base course, back to the map screen and the little circle heading across its blue expanse.

"This game is like watching paint dry... i really just dont know how you play it."

then it was off to Madden 15, with farcry 4 for dessert.

see... for every 1 of us patient, calculative types... there are 20 of him paying top dollar for constant, white knuckle, palm sweating action.

and if you want to know what games will get priority all you have to do is follow the money.

Its like the young man who quit his low paying job and struck off down the road..

"Where are you going?" people asked him

"I'm going where the money is." he said

well, ubisoft... has gone where the money is



and its nothing personal against subsimmers, its just good business. I mean lets be perfectly honest, if suddenly 95% of the worlds population ditched burgers and fries in favor of burritos and tacos as a fast food choice... McDonalds would jump through their own asses to bring you the McTaco and the McBurrito
__________________
GoldenRivet is online   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2015, 11:48 AM   #19
Sailor Steve
Jammin' Again
 
Sailor Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: High in the mountains of Utah
Posts: 49,278
Downloads: 601
Uploads: 246


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenRivet View Post
i felt like they developed SH4 anticipating that SH3 folks would buy it just because.
I think SH4 was being planned before SH3 was released, hence the complaints people made about the voices in English not having German accents. They knew what they wanted to do next right from the start.
__________________
"The way to get things done is not to mind who gets the credit for doing them."
-Benjamin Jowett, British theologian and classicist (1817-1893)


Sailor Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2015, 12:11 PM   #20
Phrixus
Bilge Rat
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 2
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Stevens View Post
My 2 cents: Ubisoft put their backs into SH3 and SH4, and were on the way with SH5 before their resources were exhausted before completion. Say what you will about them, they gave us the best WWII submarine simulations, really the only WWII subsims, since 1997.

Making a high fidelity simulation that will please just a fraction of the high demands and expectations of the customers is resource intensive, and that means expensive. When the sales don't add up to a profit, well, there's no business in losing money.
It's the "best" WW2 subsim because it's basically the only one around. There are nothing out there that you can compare with SH other than another SH.

And it is speaking volume when next to nobody compares the newer SHs favorably to the older ones.
Phrixus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2015, 09:56 PM   #21
TorpX
Silent Hunter
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,993
Downloads: 153
Uploads: 11
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenRivet View Post
the bottom line is though, and i think this is a point neal was trying to make:

Simulations in general, and more specifically submarine simulations are a really niche market. ...
Ok, niche market, I get it. I've heard that phrase a thousand times since I've visited this site. I can understand fewer companies making sub sims. I can understand a longer development cycle in sub sims. I just don't consider it to be a blanket excuse for poor products/support.


Quote:
my stepson was watching me play SH3 ...
"This game is like watching paint dry... i really just dont know how you play it."
Ok, but how old is your stepson? Young boys often do not naturally take to activities that are slower paced, and require strategy and patience. Many consider chess to be boring, but the game has managed to survive somehow.

A understand the argument about more people eat hamburgers, than eat filet mignon, but those who do, don't have to settle for rotten, parasite infested cuts.

Btw, I think there is a vein of complacency that runs through the software industry in general. [Yes, you too Microsoft.] They don't seem to want to put out a first-rate product; as if they don't really need to.

Quote:
And it is speaking volume when next to nobody compares the newer SHs favorably to the older ones.
Well put, Phrixus.

TorpX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2015, 01:59 AM   #22
Downunderjock
Seaman
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Geelong, Australia
Posts: 42
Downloads: 4
Uploads: 0
Default As GoldenRivet said.

As GoldenRivet quoted the other day.

Look at Steam. For example.

Esp. When they or gamers, tag games as "Simulators" in their Stores section.

Most Sims now are games, not Sims, now days.
Look at the amount of First Shooter Games, not just from Steam, either.

Some, are not about, planning, or plotting, or weather (or in the case of space one's, solar weather etc.) affecting you or your character or vehicle.

But to be fair, some point and click games, like other types, aren't all about point and shoot.

I also, like some that don't require you to kill a target, all the time.

Like: Take on Mars, Julia beyond the stars. Ship Sim and Train Sim and even that is changing to a more arcade type game. See their forum and they will tell you similar.

But getting back to the point, as GoldenRivet and others, have pointed out. It's sad that Sunsims, are going by the way side.
And Fleet type, is going in a FPS only direction that not even they, like how you all play SH series, where you have to locate plot, courses, make ready your sub, for your target. Noting that weather and even ocean currents subs movements can affect your eel, making it's mark.

But, that seems, to be the thing, with games out there, now.
Downunderjock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2015, 06:10 PM   #23
Erdem
Swabbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: İstanbul
Posts: 12
Downloads: 16
Uploads: 0
Default

Ubisoft is having way more success focusing on its AAA franchises like Assasins Creed and Far Cry. Why would they bother making sequels to a franchise of a dead genre? How many hardcore subsimmers are out there to justify millions of dollars of development costs? They're out of the simulation market for good.

They'll put the IP to sleep for sure. The only salvation is if an indie developer decides to develop its own submarine simulator.
Erdem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2015, 12:47 AM   #24
GoldenRivet
Subsim Aviator
 
GoldenRivet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 8,446
Downloads: 140
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TorpX View Post

I just don't consider it to be a blanket excuse for poor products/support.


Its not, We had a great "vanilla" out of the box product with SH3. But, we were going from SH2... to a product far superior to its predecessor.

We have not had a subsim far superior to its predecessor in SH4, SH5 or SHO


Quote:
Originally Posted by TorpX View Post
Ok, but how old is your stepson? Young boys often do not naturally take to activities that are slower paced, and require strategy and patience. Many consider chess to be boring, but the game has managed to survive somehow.
19 years old, and a lover of mathematics - someone you think would enjoy the idea of plotting an attack solution, mashing the fire button, and seeing the fruits of his strategy laden labors in the explosion of an ammunition ship.

Yet alas he doesnt seem to enjoy it

we have to accept that we are the minority, and there are few in the industry that cater to the minority

Quote:
Originally Posted by TorpX View Post
A understand the argument about more people eat hamburgers, than eat filet mignon, but those who do, don't have to settle for rotten, parasite infested cuts.
Well in that scenario you are comparing apples to oranges... or more precisely fast food burgers to a premium cut of steak

quality aside... companies like ubisoft arent looking at what Goldenrivet, or TorpX or SailorSteve wants. they have a business to run. Ubisoft is looking at a LOT of sales data telling them what types of games most buyers are buying. I dont know where Submarine Simulations sit on the list... but im betting its not in the top 10... probably not even in the top 20

so their efforts focus on those types of games which is why we end up with garbage


Quote:
Originally Posted by TorpX View Post
I think there is a vein of complacency that runs through the software industry in general. [Yes, you too Microsoft.] They don't seem to want to put out a first-rate product; as if they don't really need to.
and you're absolutely right, but the vein of complacency doesn't stop with the software / gaming industry. Complacency affecting the bottom line and the end product can literally be found in almost ANY industry these days.

I hate for my posts to come across that im defending Ubisoft, because really... im not... im just telling it how it is.

Sooner or later, a company is going to have to specialize in making and selling to the simulation crowd exclusively OR we are going to have to crowd fund serious capable designers to create an easily modifiable easily supported subsim for us.

the alternative is the death of the simulation game genre... a genre on its last leg

want proof?

lets just look at what a simulation gameis: as simulation game attempts to copy some facet of real life via game software that the user plays in order to recreate a real life interaction or function.

Go to steam and look under the "simulation game genre"

an overwhelming majority of those simulators are dumbed down to the point of being ridiculous - or dont even belong in the category at all.

most of them are as realistic a representation of their respective activities as the old arcade game "Burgertime" is a realistic representation of working at a fast food joint.

why are these games in the sim genre this way?

game manufacturers are trying to appeal to a wider audience by making the game more approachable and easier to pick up and run with. Simulation games when i was a kid required a lot of reading, studying and learning before achieving any skill capable of making the simulation perform as it should.

we live in the instant gratification era and folks like you and I are surrounded by instant-gratification-zombies... as long as there are more of them than there are us the kinds of games that are dominating the market right now will continue to do so indefinitely


__________________
GoldenRivet is online   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2015, 12:50 AM   #25
TorpX
Silent Hunter
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,993
Downloads: 153
Uploads: 11
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdem View Post
Why would they bother making sequels to a franchise of a dead genre?
Indeed, they are the ones who killed it.

People here have often said a good sub sim doesn't bring in enough players. But how do they know? There hasn't been a good one since SHCE.




TorpX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2015, 01:06 AM   #26
GoldenRivet
Subsim Aviator
 
GoldenRivet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 8,446
Downloads: 140
Uploads: 0


Default

Others will tell you there hasnt been a good subsim since SH4... others will say everything since Aces of the Deep was garbage and a waste of time

the problem with statements like.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by TorpX View Post
There hasn't been a good one since SHCE.
.... is that they are opinion and conjecture

but when it comes to Ubisoft and the like...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TorpX View Post
But how do they know?
they have sales data that we dont

simplified as the below example might be, i think its a good one

GOLDENRIVET'S SODA STAND SALES ANALYSIS

BEVERAGE EARNINGS UNITS SHIPPED
Vanilla Soda................... $26.50................... 106 (sold out)
Cherry Soda................... $18.25................... 73
Grape Soda.................... $13.75................... 55
Root Beer.......................$12.25................. .. 49
U-Boat Special Cocktail....... $3.50 ................ 14

based on the above information we have decided that it makes better sense to cease production of the U-Boat special cocktail and take the personnel responsible for making it and transfer them to making vanilla and cherry soda

this is exactly whats happening to subsims at places like UBI and i think calling on them for help is not our best shot
__________________
GoldenRivet is online   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2015, 08:06 AM   #27
Julhelm
Cold Waters Dev
 
Julhelm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Icy North
Posts: 595
Downloads: 165
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenRivet View Post
the thing that bothers me about what few upcoming naval combat sims that do exist is that they are geared toward portable gaming (ipad, iphone, android) and this cell phone game feel carries over when they move the game to a PC format. what you end up with feels less like a simulation... or less like an in depth game... and more like something you would waste time playing while waiting for your flight to board at the airport.

Take pacific fleet for example. turn based strategy game at its finest. but it isnt even in the same ball park as the silent hunter series. Move. Aim. Shoot. your turn. compared to the silent hunter series where solutions must be plotted, crews managed, hunting grounds carefully selected... Pacific Fleet, while a fun game within its genre, by comparison is just tic tac toe with ships.
To be fair, Pacific Fleet was never intended as an ultra-hardcore simulation. However the majority of the feedback we got was that customers want more realism, not less. That's why in Atlantic Fleet we've focused on taking what simulation we had and making it more realistic, with higher fidelity systems damage, better ballistics and armor penetration, simulated firecontrol table and so on.

I don't necessarily agree that portable gaming has to be bad or less than on the PC. You should remember that before we released Pacific Fleet, there was pretty much no serious naval games outside of Battleship clones on the platforms. It is very hard for a small self-funded team to compete on PC with the demands for realism and graphics fidelity that platform has. And with WOTA the mobiles will have what will probably be the most realistic Type VII simulation ever.
Julhelm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2015, 02:35 PM   #28
GoldenRivet
Subsim Aviator
 
GoldenRivet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 8,446
Downloads: 140
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julhelm View Post
To be fair, Pacific Fleet was never intended as an ultra-hardcore simulation.
No certainly not and I'm by no means knocking a product that i myself have purchased and had countless hours of fun playing. Pacific Fleet rocks, its fun, it looks good, it plays well and i literally have nothing bad to say about it at all in the least

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julhelm View Post
the majority of the feedback we got was that customers want more realism, not less. That's why in Atlantic Fleet we've focused on taking what simulation we had and making it more realistic, with higher fidelity systems damage, better ballistics and armor penetration, simulated firecontrol table and so on.
Im foaming at the mouth to get my hands on Atlantic fleet


Quote:
Originally Posted by Julhelm View Post
I don't necessarily agree that portable gaming has to be bad or less than on the PC. You should remember that before we released Pacific Fleet, there was pretty much no serious naval games outside of Battleship clones on the platforms. It is very hard for a small self-funded team to compete on PC with the demands for realism and graphics fidelity that platform has. And with WOTA the mobiles will have what will probably be the most realistic Type VII simulation ever.
I agree, and comparing something like pacific fleet to an in depth silent hunter type game is really apples to oranges.

but for those looking for something in depth and hard core, currently some of the naval games available aren't filling the void (not that they are intended to)

for those of you who have iphone or ipad etc and have not tried Pacific Fleet

you are missing out
__________________
GoldenRivet is online   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2015, 06:03 AM   #29
BL!TZKR!EG
•[MEXiCO U-BOOT]•
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Ensenada/Condesa, Delegación Cuauhtémoc, Hipódromo 06100 Ciudad de MEXiCO, Distrito Federal
Posts: 3,012
Downloads: 40
Uploads: 78


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by turnerg View Post
We've had enough U-Boats for now.
Errr...???

Are you certain you write this in a SUB-Sim-forum?!?!?

Really?
__________________
:lurk:

Lieblings-U-Boote: U-107 (IXB), U-156 (IXC), U-530 (IXC/40), U-995 (VIIC/41), U-256 (U-Flak)
» HONOR, AMISTAD Y RESPETO! «
» SUPPORT THE
[S3A] AND GET MEDIAFIRE «
» - S3F - S3G - TS3 «
BL!TZKR!EG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2015, 02:02 PM   #30
Bilge_Rat
Skipper
 
Bilge_Rat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: standing watch...
Posts: 3,106
Downloads: 267
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Stevens View Post
My 2 cents: Ubisoft put their backs into SH3 and SH4, and were on the way with SH5 before their resources were exhausted before completion. Say what you will about them, they gave us the best WWII submarine simulations, really the only WWII subsims, since 1997.

Making a high fidelity simulation that will please just a fraction of the high demands and expectations of the customers is resource intensive, and that means expensive. When the sales don't add up to a profit, well, there's no business in losing money.



exactly, game development is a business. At the end of the day, the company has to make a profit.

And as to expecting anything from Ubisoft, I still remember 2010 when a large and vocal part of the community did everything they could to scuttle SH5 and hoped Ubisoft would drop the franchise so that other developpers would rush in.

well you got your wish...but 5 years on, I still don't see anyone rushing in to fill the void....

__________________
Bilge_Rat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1997- 2017 Subsim