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Old 02-10-2013, 09:31 PM   #46
redline202
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Hello subsim heroes!
Such a great ideas here, just want to say...i would be more than happy to donate or pay for a real open source subsim from you guys than to pay for another miserable ubisoft project whose goal is only to make money.
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:05 AM   #47
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Vehicle Simulator is an excellent multipurpose platform and,well, I m not modelling talented but been told that 3D models, vessels or sceneries are quite easyer to build than into other Sims.

I really think it well worth a TRY !
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:12 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julhelm View Post
I would be perfectly happy with something along the lines of Seawolf or Red Storm Rising being given a graphics and interface overhaul, like what Xenonauts have done with X-Com. For WW2 subs model it on Silent Service gameplay with a touch of Pirates!

The thing is, any indie sub game that can stand any chance of getting through development and actually ship some copies will have to go back to where we began and build from there because the budget to match even SH3 graphics, amount of content or systems fidelity is not going to happen.

The only reason there are 3rd party devs developing hi-fidelity modules for FSX and DCS is because both those engines have evolved over decades of shipped iterations and even then noone knows if the hi-fidelity DCS modules will actually turn a profit with the magnitude more work they require compared to those in FSX. And this is considering these guys do not have to develop physics, campaign or other gameplay-critical systems from scratch because it's all there.

No such engine framework exists for the sub community so anything would have to be made from scratch. Even if middleware like Unity were used, all those systems would have to be developed from scratch. There's simply more to developing a sim than platform fidelity alone. So IMO it is not realistic to match or exceed what has been done with SH4/5 unless you have a budget like UBI.
I'll pretty much agree with all of that.

What I would add though is that PC gamers/owners on the whole do not appreciate the effort required to develop current software but at the same time haven't invested 1000's £ $ etc in hardware to sold on something that doesn't utilise it.

What I find interesting is that the gaming community is spanning ever wider age groups due to owners of the first home computers sticking with their hobby. Older gamers I think are more naturally drawn to the simulator, less inclined into software piracy and are prepared to pay for what they get. Sooner or later we will see games produced and marketed for this gamer and SubSims tick a fair few boxes
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Old 02-14-2013, 06:46 PM   #49
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What if we(subsim) started a kick starter page for a highly detailed game concept. Then appealed for a developer. We put out word on all the gaming sites. Sure some developer would pick it up. So the developer has money waiting for them. I would pay...
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:43 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo8993 View Post
What if we(subsim) started a kick starter page for a highly detailed game concept. Then appealed for a developer. We put out word on all the gaming sites. Sure some developer would pick it up. So the developer has money waiting for them. I would pay...
Look at the UBI: players have suggestedseveral times with mods:
- playable warships,
- other submarines (Japanese, British mods)
- and finally Destroyer Command 2 mode

What was the result?
- extra paid patch for SH4 (1.5)
- a big step back with Silent Hunter 5

There are no chance to release good & hard submarine sim now. But there are more interesting concepts on the game market based at the Navy world. Maybe we'll find something better than SH series.
No so hard sim, but more playable game than SH series.
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:50 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by tommo8993 View Post
What if we(subsim) started a kick starter page for a highly detailed game concept. Then appealed for a developer. We put out word on all the gaming sites. Sure some developer would pick it up. So the developer has money waiting for them. I would pay...
Like maybe these guys... on the Unity forums a while back Subsim super modder Hans Witteman (uboat HAHD) had a very interesting response to his team's post on a mooted subsim project...

"Hi Hans,

My main question for you is there a business plan and any available funding for this project?

I know the original lead programmer and designer, Bill Becker, of the very first Silent Hunter and he is available (around 25 years of experience and about your age). The lead artist is also a good friend of ours but he's mostly tied up with a 9 to 5 job but certainly available for your reference. I am also an expert in Unity, with 20 years professional game experience (primarily programming) and I'm currently working on an underwater game and I could answer most technical questions you have. We both come from a heavy simulations background, myself having worked on Gunship 2000 and F-15 Strike Eagle III back in the day, and Bill has worked on a ridiculous number of simulation titles as that is his specialty.

I went through most of your site and can tell that you are extremely passionate and serious about this project. If you can let us know more about your background (commercial projects are of greatest interest) and your team members we could probably put together quite a powerful team. We have access to many of the developers from the old MicroProse Software days, including business development. For a AAA game you need serious resources in business, marketing and distribution so we want to make sure you have the whole picture covered and how we might best work together."

Don Goddard


Presumably the artist of which they speak is the legendary Kim Biscoe who worked on Pirates! Gold, Silent Service II, Great Naval Battles 1,2,3 &4, Silent Hunter, Silent Hunter II and on the radar & sonar screens of Destroyer Command as well as many other sims.


Go to agree with Antar here too this time we really need playable surface units included, even if it's purely a multiplayer game with no AI.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:06 PM   #52
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If the site sets up a kickstarter page and then appeals to a game developer or even with the money raised hire a developer. A good developer i'm sure we could get what we wanted.
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:45 AM   #53
tsotha
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Originally Posted by Blacklight View Post
I seriously don't want ANOTHER Uboat sim. I'm so tired of World War II. Give me a nice Cold War subsim.
But WW II sims have some pretty big advantages. For one, the whole environment changes between 1939 and 1945. You get sent right to the bottom if you're using 1939 tactics in 1945. How much have tactics changed since the invention of TAS?

Also, you're not going to actually do much in a cold war sim. No fiddling with the TDC - it's all computerized. Attacks are made from beyond periscope range, so there's nothing to see.

And a hot war in that era is over in a few days, max. There's no six years of increasingly dangerous duty.

Going the other way, a WW I sim is going to be pretty boring as well, but for different reasons. ASW is still in its infancy, so there isn't much danger until the war enters its third year. Hell, doctrine was to motor up to the victim, order its crew into lifeboats, and sink the ship with explosives placed by a boarding party. It isn't until the last year or so of the war that you had much to fear from the enemy. How is that going to be turned into an interesting game?

Quote:
My holy grails right now are 1. A new "Dangerous Waters", and 2. A new "Harpoon" (that actually works and isn't a buggy mess).
Amen to a new "Harpoon". I loved that game, especially after they got most of the bugs worked out.

Quote:
Maybe Subsim could become the next "Sonolysts"? I mean, we have plenty of REALLY smart people who know a LOT about modern naval stuff here. I'm sure that we have people who know how to make great game graphics here. Maybe Subsim should become a forum, AND a subsim creation collective?
I don't know enough about subs to make a modern sim, but if other people did the artsy stuff I can do some of the programming. I still think the best bet would be to buy the SH5 code base from Ubi and then finish it. Otherwise it's a years-long project, just like it was for Ubi.
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:50 AM   #54
tsotha
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Originally Posted by Shiplord View Post
The team of the Open Source Subsim Danger from the Deep had already asked several times for help here and in other forums, but no one has shown real interest in joining the team.
Based on what I see on sourceforge it looks like that project petered out over two years ago. They claimed to have a playable alpha, though, so it could be restarted.
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Old 02-17-2013, 09:54 AM   #55
Schakal_U109
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Hi Guys,

the idea of creating a own subsim sounds great. But it is not as easy as it sounds in the begining, and some of you already told about the risks and problems. But which options do we have!? :

1st - We took a game like SH2/DC or SH3 and make a list of what we have to change to make a good sim (graphics, realism, gameplay etc....) >>> then look what we need for this >>> how much money is needed for this >>> wo can realise it (community + a professional studio) >>> try to find someone
Biggest problem for this: The gamerights belong to Ubisoft. We can try to give them a concept or to get the permission of them to recreate their game...

2nd - Search a game which is already modder-friendly and has the possability to create a naval game (Virtual Sailor !? don't know such games very good). The do the same like on top, create a list of what we want and what is needed for realising this >>> Coast budget > award a contract

3rd - Creat an completly new game from stock. But if that should be a sucess we need the help of some professionals who can realise this. If we have a basic game, the modding community can build it up like we want it.

4th - Look how other games are made: At first there is someone with an "Idea". Then someone makes a script of it. And then he goes with his ideas and scripts to the gamestudios and perhaps someone will make it.
So, why can't we do this!? We can create a completley new script of a Subsim. New ideas an concepts like we want it. Then we have to write it into a form that some studios can have a look at it. There are two options:
We collect the needed money from our community and give the contract to a gamestudio OR the concept is so great that a gamestudio itself will make the game. Or perhaps a bit of both!?

Why not try it!?
Sorry for my english, hope you can understand what i want to say with that. But if we talk about such a project, we need to know what are our possabilities and how we can realise them. What Ideas do you have? Don't you think, our BIG community can do such a project!? I think, YES WE CAN
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Old 02-17-2013, 06:30 PM   #56
Julhelm
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Originally Posted by tsotha View Post
Also, you're not going to actually do much in a cold war sim. No fiddling with the TDC - it's all computerized. Attacks are made from beyond periscope range, so there's nothing to see.
That's just not true.
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Old 02-18-2013, 07:56 AM   #57
Karl Heinrich
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I think with the WW2 v Cold War issue, it would need to be a modular system that can provide both (similar to X-Plane for Flight Sims, the engine provides the enviroment and it can be populated with what you put in it essentially) and any community-led game is likely to be more open to enable this than a commercially-driven one. So I don't think there should be too much debate about that one. Similarly this approach would easily enable the implementation of surface ships (I say easily, this is all pretty abstract and relative at the moment of course).

Eseentially, I think a focus on the core, shared elements first so a potentially great project like this doesn't get slowed down by discussion as to whether it should be WW2 or Cold War or anything else
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:50 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Schakal_U109 View Post
1st - We took a game like SH2/DC or SH3 and make a list of what we have to change to make a good sim (graphics, realism, gameplay etc....) >>> then look what we need for this >>> how much money is needed for this >>> wo can realise it (community + a professional studio) >>> try to find someone
Biggest problem for this: The gamerights belong to Ubisoft. We can try to give them a concept or to get the permission of them to recreate their game...
The best idea is a game source code from older productions like SH2/DC, SH3 or Enigma:RT.
But no access for it. Unfortunately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schakal_U109 View Post
2nd - Search a game which is already modder-friendly and has the possability to create a naval game (Virtual Sailor !? don't know such games very good). The do the same like on top, create a list of what we want and what is needed for realising this >>> Coast budget > award a contract
Let's calculate:
20 programmers, 12-month term, year market salary 60.000$ = 1.200.000 $ total budget

Who pays?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schakal_U109 View Post
3rd - Creat an completly new game from stock. But if that should be a sucess we need the help of some professionals who can realise this. If we have a basic game, the modding community can build it up like we want it.
The example of "Danger of the Deep" show us that is it team order not for few fans only but for whole community. Project was cancelled at 0.5 verion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Schakal_U109 View Post
4th - Look how other games are made: At first there is someone with an "Idea". Then someone makes a script of it. And then he goes with his ideas and scripts to the gamestudios and perhaps someone will make it.
Now I see only one candidate: WarThunder (fleet in development) - the engine and game concept allows to put submarines / destroyers there.
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Old 02-19-2013, 07:23 PM   #59
tommo8993
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for a game engine, unreal looks surprisingly well
http://www.indiedb.com/games/seacraft
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:16 PM   #60
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Well I've argued before that what the SH series lacked in general was competition. Not one serious contender to supplant AOD besides UBI. Competition kind of creates a checks and balance system as to not release a buggy or incomplete game. Something I don't think UBI had done once with the Silent Hunter series.
I can't speak to programming or development aspects of making a Sim from scratch. What I can tell you is that if someone did start a SH6 type of Uboat sim from the ground up...where would be issues with the community. Too many Chiefs and self described experts trying to via for selfish inclusions and endless streams of "suggestions". I think the only way it works with a community so dedicated to the cause.....is to poll the crap out of the community as to focus in one direction. Release a statement of what they are going to build with exactly what features. Then let it be and let development go and do their thing. The biggest let down with the Silent Hunter series IMHO has been the lack of progression (or straight up regression (post MODs to new game development) of core game play aspects, lack of testing (buggy incomplete games), over focus of graphics and RPG specifics, and general lack of support post release. I always felt that after playing AOD in my younger years....that the next step in Uboat sims would be amazing. While the graphics didnt disappoint. ......most everything else did.
If I was a first time PC gamer that didn't know any better, didn't know of SUBSIM.com and MODs, and played SH5 stock. I'd be turned off within hours....never to return to WW2 subsims.

So I think Silent Hunter series or UBI needs to die. The progress has been lackluster based on where it started in Dynamix's AOD. Which they obviously didn't play or refused to follow. Had they just made AOD with better graphics, it would have been a huge success in SH2. SH3 was much better (MODs made it AOD part 2...without some easy immersion that AOD had.... victory flags, bar inport with news, attempt a wolfpacks). SH4 ...buggy (i hear), then SH5.. .which was a huge step forward in graphics (at least for the series, and a huge step back in core aspects and was boarder line unplayable out of the box. It proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the series has been completely comfortable in its unchecked (read: competition) post release "let Subsim fix it" mentality...and that the series was more or less done. As harsh as it sounds...and as much as everyone owes UBI for trying .... it's the truth. Am I telling anyone anything they don't know? Probably not. Am I an untalented (at least programming wise) whiny person complaining on the WWW? you bet. But I've spend a lot of money on crap...and I've still yet to see the type of quality I used to see in a sim released in the 90's. I do heart ...as I'd would have left uboat sims had I not discovered it while struggling to grasp how bad SH2 was. It gives me hope.... maybe when someone with passion, a bank roll, and community backing can reinvent the Uboat sim. It's hard to see with our 'got to have it now' world view....but maybe. I'm still hopeful that when I retire in 30 years or whatever I could be engrossed in a Sim as much as I was in AOD. Until then....Don't give up the Ship! hehe
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Last edited by finchOU; 02-24-2013 at 11:44 PM.
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