[REL] SH 5 Lifeboats

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by gap

EDIT: @ TDW
so, you agree with me that if we increase tremendously sailboat's HP, explosions shouldn't happen?

If you give the lifeboats a HUGE amount of HPs then yes, it's feasible. As the HPs would theoretically never reach 0 so the effects in particles.dat would never be called You'd have to ensure the zones you give the lifeboat for it's boxes don't have any effects associated with them also.

The only 'problem' is my FX_Update and any mod that does some things like FX_Update does. When a shell hits something I spawn off debris - metal shards. Doesn't matter what the shells impacts into these are always spawned. So if you shell the lifeboats and you have FX_Update installed you will see metal shards flying in the air and landing in the water as debris.

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by gap

Given your experience with IRAI, I think you are the only one here who can tell wether what I am saing (in bold) is doable or not...

It's not a matter of equipping a radio to them or not...it's a matter of what kind of cmdr_ AI type they are. You'll find that in it's .sim file. What kind of cmd_x are the lifeboats?

[gap]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

If you give the lifeboats a HUGE amount of HPs then yes, it's feasible. As the HPs would theoretically never reach 0 so the effects in particles.dat would never be called You'd have to ensure the zones you give the lifeboat for it's boxes don't have any effects associated with them also.

I guess they would still get damage and sink by flooding. Isn't it?

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

The only 'problem' is my FX_Update and any mod that does some things like FX_Update does. When a shell hits something I spawn off debris - metal shards. Doesn't matter what the shells impacts into these are always spawned. So if you shell the lifeboats and you have FX_Update installed you will see metal shards flying in the air and landing in the water as debris.

Yes, I had imagined it. But I think we could live with it as far as shells would not provoke huge explosions.

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

It's not a matter of equipping a radio to them or not...it's a matter of what kind of cmdr_ AI type they are. You'll find that in it's .sim file. What kind of cmd_x are the lifeboats?

I've opened it with S3d. Under cmdr_AIShip node, there is a SHSim.cmdr_AIFight controller. As I wrote before, the point is making planes to get alerted when they are spotting a lifeboat, and to patrol the area in search of any enemy contact...
but I am aware that there are several limitations on what aircraft AI can do in SH5, and I am a perfect ignorant on this (an many more) matter(s), so probably what I am suggesting is simply impossible.

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by gap

I guess they would still get damage and sink by flooding. Isn't it?

Yes they could. It all depends on how you setup the zones (.zon file)

Yes, I had imagined it. But I think we could live with it as far as shells would not provoke huge explosions.

It would be a minor annoyance to me and I could live with it

I've opened it with S3d. Under cmdr_AIShip node, there is a SHSim.cmdr_AIFight controller. As I wrote before, the point is making planes to get alerted when they are spotting a lifeboat, and to patrol the area in search of any enemy contact...
but I am aware that there are several limitations on what aircraft AI can do in SH5, and I am a perfect ignorant on this (an many more) matter(s), so probably what I am suggesting is simply impossible.

If it's a cmdr_AIShip then it acts just like a ship. If it spots an enemy it will radio for help

[gap]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

If it's a cmdr_AIShip then it acts just like a ship. If it spots an enemy it will radio for help

yes, I see, but read below:

Originally Posted by Rongel

It might be possible to add a radio to them, but not sure if it would impact the computer usage in a bad way. But is there a logic problem also: let's imagine that we torpedo a ship and it is destroyed before distress call. Then lifeboats are spawned and they spot our periscope. So we leave the place. Normally it would take time for the airpatrols to spot and rescue the survivors, but if the boats would have a "radio", the call would be instant and planes would leave too fast to chase us. (I don't know but i'm guessing that lifeboats didn't have a radio system in them???)

At first I had proposed to equip lifeboats with radios as a workaround, for simulating the fact that on spotting life rafts, Allied aircraft would look for enemies in the area.

But there are two flaws in this trick: one was evidenced by Rongel (see quote), the other one is that if we are out of the range of lifeboat's sensors, they stop "drawing the attection" of nearby aircraft, while in real life they wouldn't.

I guess the latter inconvenience could be ironed out by increasing unrealistically rafts sensors range. Still, there's the problem that they would start calling for reinforcements too early, while in real life it would have taken many hours or several days -depending on air traffic- before a plane transiting accidentally could spot the raft and start patroling the area...

The only solutions I see are:

- making aircraft to get alerted when they spot lifeboats, with no need to be radioed. Provided that this is going to be possible, IRAI should take care of it, or...

- keeping the radio on lifeboats, but decreasing its range to the average visual range of an aircraft.

I hope I made myself clear now

[TheDarkWraith]

I don't understand where you are getting that adding a radio is going to get the lifeboats to call for reinforcements? Where do you see a radio in a ship's or airplane's .eqp or .sns file? I'd love to look at one of these and see what's going on.

It's the sensors of the unit (mainly the visual, hydro, and sonar) in conjunction with the cmdr_ type that causes the game engine to react.

[gap]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

I don't understand where you are getting that adding a radio is going to get the lifeboats to call for reinforcements? Where do you see a radio in a ship's or airplane's .eqp or .sns file? I'd love to look at one of these and see what's going on.

It's the sensors of the unit (mainly the visual, hydro, and sonar) in conjunction with the cmdr_ type that causes the game engine to react.

Dear TheDarkWraith,
forgive me for my immense ignorance!

So the ability of an unit to communicate with other units resides in its cmdr_xx. I wasn't aware of it, thanks.

Still, I see that we didn't understand each other yet. In short points, this is what I've in mind:

• the sailboat should alert other units only if she gets within their visual range;
• when this happens, neither the sailboat nor the alerted units should be aware of our current position, unless we are just in range of their respective sensors;
• once they get alerted, naval and merchant units should start to react appropriately, according to normal IRAI routines;
• alerted airplanes should start looking for us within a given range... possibly this behaviour is already implemented in IRAI, but melius abundare quam deficere Latins said;
• other airplanes should be drawn in the area, if it resides within the range of an active Allied airbase.

I see anyway that this discussion is getting off topic here. Maybe we should keep it on in the IRAI thread, provided that there is any further interest.

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by gap

Dear TheDarkWraith,
forgive me for my immense ignorance!

So the ability of an unit to communicate with other units resides in its cmdr_xx. I wasn't aware of it, thanks.


Still, I see that we didn't understand each other yet. In short points, this is what I've in mind:

• the sailboat should alert other units only if she gets within their visual range;

Just being in the visual range won't do anything. It has to actually detect you. Once you are detected then it will alert everyone else.

• when this happens, neither the sailboat nor the alerted units should be aware of our current position, unless we are just in range of their respective sensors;

They will know your position only if the AI routines 'tell' them, even if just in range of their respective sensors. You can see what I mean by this in the differences in IRAI v30 (they know exactly where you are) and IRAI v37 (they don't know where you are and search for you)

• once they get alerted, naval and merchant units should start to react appropriately, according to normal IRAI routines;

The AI routines dictate how all the units will react. The sim.cfg file specifies how 'far' away alerted units will come from. IRAI v37 has the Lost contant time at 30 mins. So any unit within 30 mins travel time of the unit that spotted something will react.

• alerted airplanes should start looking for us within a given range... possibly this behaviour is already implemented in IRAI, but melius abundare quam deficere Latins said;

See above about Lost contant time

• other airplanes should be drawn in the area, if it resides within the range of an active Allied airbase.

See above about Lost contact time

I see anyway that this discussion is getting off topic here. Maybe we should keep it on in the IRAI thread, provided that there is any further interest.

Don't think I was attacking you, I was merely asking where you had seen a radio in a unit's .eqp or .sns file. I had never seen one and if one existed I wanted to see how it worked See above in yellow.

Everything is setup correctly in the lifeboats for this to be working already from what I've seen of the files. To truely verify one should make a single mission with a single unit, player's sub submerged, and an airplane 10-12kms away from the sub heading parallel to the subs course. Have sub torpedo unit and once lifeboats spawn surface the sub. The lifeboats should detect the sub and the airplane should vector to the area

[TheDarkWraith]

I've been playing around with this idea of sinking the lifeboats and the lifeboats being able to call in reinforcements. I have something working but it's not perfect yet. I have to do some work on my GR2 Editor/Viewer so that I can add the missing items to make this really work

[gap]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

Just being in the visual range won't do anything. It has to actually detect you. Once you are detected then it will alert everyone else.

Okay, but airplanes and other units should start to react only if they have a sailboat within their visual range, and to keep doing what they were doing if the boat is beyond this limit. Can we achive this result?

Moreover, they should get in alert status even if you are submerged or very far from the sailboat. I think we can mimic this fact by equipping sailboats with unrealistically advanced sensors (ASDIC, or RADAR?) and possibly by increasing their range. Thus they should be able to detect you anyway and to alert other units.

Yet, I see some flaws in this method: for a start, I wonder if it would be possible to increase the range of a sensor oinly for a given kind of unit (sailboats in this case), without affecting also the range of the same sensor for other units? As far as I know, there is not such a kind of unit-related setting for sensors range. And also, we don't want to hear that a sailboat is pinging us...
Hence there are some limits on how far sailboats will be able to detect us, unless you or someone else can suggest another solution.

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

They will know your position only if the AI routines 'tell' them, even if just in range of their respective sensors. You can see what I mean by this in the differences in IRAI v30 (they know exactly where you are) and IRAI v37 (they don't know where you are and search for you)

do you mean that alerted units wouldn't know our position, although the sailboat detected us? This would be perfect!

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

The AI routines dictate how all the units will react. The sim.cfg file specifies how 'far' away alerted units will come from. IRAI v37 has the Lost contant time at 30 mins. So any unit within 30 mins travel time of the unit that spotted something will react.

Okay,
is there a way to predict within wich radius from the "spotting unit" they will be searching for enemy activity? I guess it has to be different depending on the kind of unit. And also: will they keep searching you until someone is detecting you?

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

Don't think I was attacking you,

No, I don't think it at all
I am sorry if a gave you this impression, but I can't resist to a witty remark, whenever I am given the chance of using it!
Moreover I am really aware to know little or nothing on many SH related issues.

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

I was merely asking where you had seen a radio in a unit's .eqp or .sns file. I had never seen one and if one existed I wanted to see how it worked

no, I never saw one either. I was just groping in the dark!

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

Everything is setup correctly in the lifeboats for this to be working already from what I've seen of the files.

I see, my suggestions are meant for making the AI to react to sailboats as realistically as possible, so to make them a part of the factors that we should take into account for our patrols. According to your last statement we got a good starting point.

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

To truely verify one should make a single mission with a single unit, player's sub submerged, and an airplane 10-12kms away from the sub heading parallel to the subs course. Have sub torpedo unit and once lifeboats spawn surface the sub. The lifeboats should detect the sub and the airplane should vector to the area

Got to install again the game. I will do it one of these days and I will carry the test you are suggesting.

[gap]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

I've been playing around with this idea of sinking the lifeboats and the lifeboats being able to call in reinforcements. I have something working but it's not perfect yet. I have to do some work on my GR2 Editor/Viewer so that I can add the missing items to make this really work

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by gap

Got to install again the game. I will do it one of these days and I will carry the test you are suggesting.

If you had the game installed I would send you the test mission I made (along with all the necessary files to make this work) that shows early proof of concept

[gap]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

If you had the game installed I would send you the test mission I made (along with all the necessary files to make this work) that shows early proof of concept

You convinced me, send me everything!

After all it makes little sense to spend so much time in a game that you aren't actually playing

[gap]

erm...
a minor specification, just to make sure that we are talking about the same thing:

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

I've been playing around with this idea of sinking the lifeboats and the lifeboats being able to call in reinforcements.

technically they weren't "calling in" reinforcements. They were acting only a passive role, drawing the attention of other units, like buoys marking a possible enemy activity in the vicinity.

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by gap

erm...
a minor specification, just to make sure that we are talking about the same thing:



technically they weren't "calling in" reinforcements. They were acting only a passive role, drawing the attention of other units, like buoys marking a possible enemy activity in the vicinity.

You'll see in the test mission I made what happens. When the lifeboats spot you the game lets everyone unit with Lost contant time (specified in sim.cfg file) know that a unit was spotted. Those that can respond will respond and come and investigate. You'll see that once the lifeboats spot you the airplane that is way way off in the distance (min of 13kms away from you) vectors to where the lifeboats spotted you.