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Old 03-11-2010, 01:10 PM   #31
digitizedsoul
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Originally Posted by kylania View Post
If you do that then the player will have this unachievable (realistically speaking) objective constantly on their screen.

Why would you make a mission without an objective anyway? Obviously you're intending something to happen, why not make that or part of that an objective?
Well what we are trying to accomplish with this (and I understand how it sounds a bit odd) is to create multiplayer missions which are centered around the players deciding when the game is over (out of torps, unable to catch up to enemy, etc) and not "Accidentaly" complete an objective and prematurely end the game for all players.

For single player missions this obviously isn't the goal, but for multiplayer you generally want to see the game continue until the players decide to end it. This is a major flaw (in my opinion) with the stock maps. I sank 50,000 tons myself with one torp load because I was the sub that spawned closest to the convoy.

The other players never got a shot in, and the flaw became very apparent.
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Old 03-11-2010, 01:18 PM   #32
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The message was on the main forum, I think Pintea is one of the developers

Yes we should compile a mission/campaign design doc, once we have enough information.

Now we need to learn how the Spawn Nodes (docked ships) are chosen from the pool of ships of a country.. I think normal Roster Ships w/ docked option enabled could be used instead of the spawn nodes, just like in SH3.

On the other hand, there are some confusions. I placed an extra Uboat sailing out and some planes flying overhead, and they should appear at the start of a mission, in Kiel.. But only my other 3 docked ships show up, no sign of the Uboat or planes.. Still experimenting.
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Old 03-11-2010, 01:20 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by bigboywooly View Post
Damn forgot the misge
Though I popped into Amsterdam the other day - late 39 - and there were 3 British and 3 German merchants docked together
lol
Which is worrying
So? The dutch remained neutral until the blitzkrieg in may 1940.

It's not like merchants are allowed to shoot each other in a neutral port. Seems perfectly normal to me.

Brits sailing into a German port is pretty weird though, unless it's right after the war breaks.
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Old 03-11-2010, 02:07 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by L3TUC3 View Post
So? The dutch remained neutral until the blitzkrieg in may 1940.

It's not like merchants are allowed to shoot each other in a neutral port. Seems perfectly normal to me.

Brits sailing into a German port is pretty weird though, unless it's right after the war breaks.
Possibly so
Though the lack of anything Dutch was a worry

And that doesnt explain why Bergen in late 39 had all Br merchants and warship patrols
lol
AND after the Dutch have fallen Br ships still sail along the Dutch coastline with really nowhere to go that isnt occupied

Anyway
Piri Reis

Nice observations and great to have them written down
Picked up on a couple of those myself though not the nodes part so nice job
Off to have a look at the Generaters and convoys to see how they work
Will do a write up if figure it out

Maybe this thread should be a sticky as full of interesting information
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Old 03-11-2010, 04:40 PM   #35
HanSolo78
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Really nice information guys!!
Hopefully we will have some historical harbour ship population.
One can also have a look into my WAC mod as I spent several months of work to experience docking times of most big battleships. especially the german ones!

greetings
Han
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Old 03-12-2010, 06:08 AM   #36
HanSolo78
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Hi!

Yesterday evening and today I worked a little bit with the ME and the harbour traffic and I experienced some interesting points... at least for the harbour Kiel.

1.Docked ships create an enourmous FPS hit! i.e. 15 added ships approximately 15-20 FPS

2.Until now I found no way to edit the harbour traffic layer... everytime I wanna change something in position, etc, I had to rework with an editor.
But I think this may only be for the moment.




So.. that´s it for now.

greetings
Han
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Old 03-12-2010, 03:27 PM   #37
piri_reis
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The Nodes system is very powerful and flexible, it's a few clicks to create a one time or periodic convoy from point A to B. Because there are so many Path Nodes already created in the common layer, you can just create your ship group and tell them to go from Kiel to Bergen or Halifax to Alexandria.

I'm not definitely sure but I think the Spawn Nodes that are used for docked ships, interact with a close-by Generator Node. This way, if there is a convoy with the SchleswigHolstein included, that is going from Kiel to Danzig, the SchleswigHolstein will be spawned as a docked ship..
I've seen this happen a few times. So it looks like, the pool of ships include ships due to sail..

There is one problem I'm running across though. The ships are not following their waypoints very cleverly. This is the reason they are sailing like drunkards in ports. For example none can enter the kiel canal correctly. I just don't understand this, because they seem to be going ok once inside the canal...

I tried some single missions with ships to enter and exit the canal locks, they all find somewhere to run into and go into a forward/reverse cycle! Simple waypoint following seems broken, they turn too early for the next waypoint, or they skip it all together. (I have at least 1km between each waypoint..)

Must be missing something..
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Old 03-12-2010, 04:31 PM   #38
digitizedsoul
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Piri -

Run said tests WHILE you have the AI Script debugger running. You should see verbose feedback on which autoroutines (scripts) the AI is using to exhbit the behavior.

For example they should be using a "collision avoidance" autoroutine if what you suspect is true.

I have experienced the same thing you are experiencing with my multiplayer map "Gibraltar Surface Run". The fleets are supposed to follow certain waypoints, but once they get radar contact on each other they completely ignore the waypoints and start exhibiting ridiculous behavior.

In my case both fleets turn away from eachother and start steaming at full speed in the oppisite directions, ignoring all waypoints. I am going to debug the AI on that later but just haven't had time.

Stupid bronchitis got me so sick i can barely work muchless mod.....
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Old 03-12-2010, 04:34 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piri_reis View Post
I'm not definitely sure but I think the Spawn Nodes that are used for docked ships, interact with a close-by Generator Node. This way, if there is a convoy with the SchleswigHolstein included, that is going from Kiel to Danzig, the SchleswigHolstein will be spawned as a docked ship..
I've seen this happen a few times. So it looks like, the pool of ships include ships due to sail..

So does this mean that the docked ships won't join the respective convoy and get underway though? A docked ship does not move if I recall correctly.

The generator node spawns it? Or does the spawn node?
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Old 03-12-2010, 05:53 PM   #40
piri_reis
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Originally Posted by digitizedsoul View Post
So does this mean that the docked ships won't join the respective convoy and get underway though? A docked ship does not move if I recall correctly.

The generator node spawns it? Or does the spawn node?
Yes a Generator Node spawns groups of ships which have objectives(Reach or Patrol other node) The ships will just pop up in the game from nothingness and presumably start sailing to their next waypoint. (Connected with Path Nodes)
*
There seems to be a bug with this too, If two different ship group spawn at the same time, they get stuck together..

A Spawn Node, seems to be used for docked ships. This draws from some ship pool which we don't know the details. But as I said, I've seen ships that are due to depart tomorrow, docked in the yards. Once the right time comes, they disappear from their Spawn Node spots, and pop up at their Generator Node location..

----

I've gone through all of the AI Scripts, hoping to catch what was throwing off their navigation...
Implementation seems logical enough, it should work..
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Oct.29.1939, 2nd Patrol Eastern English Waters
Running SH5/TWOS
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Old 03-13-2010, 12:28 PM   #41
bigboywooly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piri_reis View Post
The Nodes system is very powerful and flexible, it's a few clicks to create a one time or periodic convoy from point A to B. Because there are so many Path Nodes already created in the common layer, you can just create your ship group and tell them to go from Kiel to Bergen or Halifax to Alexandria.

I'm not definitely sure but I think the Spawn Nodes that are used for docked ships, interact with a close-by Generator Node. This way, if there is a convoy with the SchleswigHolstein included, that is going from Kiel to Danzig, the SchleswigHolstein will be spawned as a docked ship..
I've seen this happen a few times. So it looks like, the pool of ships include ships due to sail..

There is one problem I'm running across though. The ships are not following their waypoints very cleverly. This is the reason they are sailing like drunkards in ports. For example none can enter the kiel canal correctly. I just don't understand this, because they seem to be going ok once inside the canal...

I tried some single missions with ships to enter and exit the canal locks, they all find somewhere to run into and go into a forward/reverse cycle! Simple waypoint following seems broken, they turn too early for the next waypoint, or they skip it all together. (I have at least 1km between each waypoint..)

Must be missing something..
Thats the AI avoidance routine
They dont like narrow areas so no chance of one moving into\out the canal or to leave Wilhelmshaven
Waypoints seem ok but due to the above they will never enter an area like the canal - the canal is now wider than the SH3 modded version so they will sail it ok
Just not enter thru the schleuse

And yes you are correct re convoys
Makes it a breeze adding them though seems game already has most convoy routes included
Adding ships to a convoy is similar to SH3 and 4
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Old 03-13-2010, 12:33 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HanSolo78 View Post
Hi!

Yesterday evening and today I worked a little bit with the ME and the harbour traffic and I experienced some interesting points... at least for the harbour Kiel.

1.Docked ships create an enourmous FPS hit! i.e. 15 added ships approximately 15-20 FPS

2.Until now I found no way to edit the harbour traffic layer... everytime I wanna change something in position, etc, I had to rework with an editor.
But I think this may only be for the moment.




So.. that´s it for now.

greetings
Han
Hi Hans
You will have to delete some of the spawn nodes to lessen docked units ( the NodeP ) in your photo
The game pulls ships to fill these nodes from the roster and seems pulls them inline with convoys\groups about to depart
So if you plan on adding historical docked units the old way then you will increase the amount of units in port unless you reduce the NodeP's

Hope that helps
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Old 03-13-2010, 12:40 PM   #43
piri_reis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboywooly View Post
Thats the AI avoidance routine
They dont like narrow areas so no chance of one moving into\out the canal or to leave Wilhelmshaven
That's weird because there is so much traffic already defined, that will sail through the canal.. How the devs overlooked that, I don't know

So maybe widening the entrance, getting rid of that quay in the middle, would help..
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Lt.z.S. Barbaros Hayreddin, U-35, 2nd Flot/Kiel, Type VIIB
Oct.29.1939, 2nd Patrol Eastern English Waters
Running SH5/TWOS
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Old 03-13-2010, 01:08 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piri_reis View Post
That's weird because there is so much traffic already defined, that will sail through the canal.. How the devs overlooked that, I don't know

So maybe widening the entrance, getting rid of that quay in the middle, would help..
Aye but as that really exists ( and should contain locks ) maybe best to stop any moving traffic short of that and start movement in the canal
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Old 03-13-2010, 01:27 PM   #45
piri_reis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboywooly View Post
Aye but as that really exists ( and should contain locks ) maybe best to stop any moving traffic short of that and start movement in the canal
Yes it's not a good solution, but what about all the traffic that are spawned by the Generator Node in Kiel or ports in the Baltic, that normally use the Canal to goto anywhere in the Nord Sea. I wonder if you're not in graphical viewing distance, the traffic goes through? There are periodic supply convoys and taskforce units that take the route to go on missions later in the war. I guess the AI avoidance doesn't execute and traffic goes through..

What a pity, it would be great to see traffic come into Kiel, turn into the canal and sail through it... the AI avoidance is a tad too cautious..
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