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Old 06-22-2008, 07:18 PM   #1
Frame57
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Question Alpha class test depth?

I have a question for the gang here. I was tinkering with the Alpha boat using SCX and noticed something a bit disappointing. The modelled boat in the game has a test depth of only 1450 feet? An Alpha on a bad day can go 900 meters! Not meaning to be picky here, but that is what those boats could do. They got the speed right. So is there a way to set these files to reflect the correct test depth?
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Old 06-23-2008, 03:11 AM   #2
clive bradbury
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I'm not sure. You can use the database editor to change the max depth of the Alpha, currently set too shallow at -471m. But I don't know whether the SCX playable boats use that information or not. Try it out and see. If not, I could probably make a separate playable with accurate characteristics without too much trouble.
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Old 06-24-2008, 05:23 PM   #3
Frame57
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Clive! You da man! I remember when I was a "Nub", during watch as helmsman/planesman the COW remarked how the Alpha's were very deep diving and fast. I was always fascinated with the spec's of the boat. The buzz back then @ 1979 was that they were strong because of the titanium allow hull, but were "brittle". So they allegedly only allowed the Alpha's so many deep dives. But I have learned that the problem really was in their welding technology and not the alloy itself. But since then this "britlle" issue has subsided as their ability to weld the allow properly came into fruition.When i look at an Alpha it gives me the shivers. There is something ominous about that boat.
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:47 AM   #4
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very bad misconception about the alfa it was made for speed and average diving capabilities, its acctual test depth is 700 meters and its crush depth is 750meters this is the real alfa project 705 and 705K.

They are small and nice boats fast but noisey i have been on K123 in gremikha she is all but stripped but you do get a sence that this is one powerful boat but it does have some wierd ass limits.

a captain who i spoke to who was on tests with an alfa in 1995 when they reactivated one for specialist high speed tests told me that if your at flank speed 45 knots and you turn full rudder the submarine could flip over.

the misconception was made by american engineers guessing its design parameters yes it was made with titanium so they said easy 900 meters it was backed up later by tom clancys hunt for red october however at the end of the cold war with many of the older submarines being decomissioned it was revealed they could only go down to 700 meters.

The sierra class can achieve 35 knots and dive to 850 meters (deepest diving submarine in the world still in commission)

The mike class was misconcieved to, the americans believed it hasa new ever more powerful power plant that previous submarines giving it a top speed of 38+ knots the only thing they got right was its diving depth of 1020 meters yet the submarine crushes at 5,100 feet its a shame that in 1989 she was lost with most of her crew it would have made an excellent boat no torpedo in the world could touch it.

It wasnt untill 2000 they released some data on the mike and her powerplant that the americans realised that infact she had the same reactor systems as previous boats meaning she could reach 35 knots on a good day.
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Old 06-25-2008, 06:32 AM   #5
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Project 705 and 705K lira NATO code name alfa

A small submarine built entirely for speed and average diving depths she is made of a light wieght titanium alloy which will enable her to submerge to a maximum depth of 750 meters, he light wieght construction small size and wieght means she can atain speeds of 45 knots far faster than many western submarines.

The submarines have just six compartments two of which are mainly manned control room and also engineering space to the rear, its only when at battle stations does compartment one get manned.

there are seven of the class 2 have been dismantled one is in active service still as a testing platform and the others are laid up at bolshya lopatka (near zapadny litsa the test ship is based in gremikha).

At the fall of the soviet union all but one was in service all units were liad up by 1992 however one was briefly reactivated in 1995 for testing but since been mothballed and one was re activated in 1995 and remains active as a test platform.

Specification:

Length: 82 meters long
Width: 9.5 meters
Draft: 7.6 meters
Top speed 45.2 knots
Displacement: 2,300 tonnes surfaced / 3,500 tonnes submerged
Crew: 30 to 45
Maximum diving depth: 750 meters
Hull: titanium alloy

Designed by design station 193 malakhit st petersburg chief designer Mikhail Rusanov

Re fitted to carry SS-N-15 Starfish torpedos in the 1980's (nuclear torpedos like subroc)

All of the class were stationed in Bolshya Lopatka along with submarines like the Typhoon and Oscar II class

Built at the ship yards in st petersburg and Severmorsk

K-337 sufferd a reactor accident in 1972 the liquid metal leaked from the reactor the submarine was never put to sea again instead it was dismatled her reactor compartment remains at the sadya bay nuclear storage facility.

Alfas were built between 1974 and 1977 seven were built but construction was terminated as the hulls were found to be too expencive to mass produce, they were designed to be interceptor submarines rather than a pure ASW or ASuW submarine meaning they were designed to get to a point fast shoot and run away unlike the akula or victor III which were pure attack submarines.

Reactor of the alfa:

Known as OK-550 its lead/bismuth cooled however the draw back to this is should the reactor temprature fall below 125*c the solution solidifies shutting down the reactor and causing the reactor never to function again four submarines sifferd this problem.
In the early years shore based facilities kept the reactors warm however the reliability of these installations was not garenteed so they decided the reactor should remain online even when in port, the reactors had a life span of 25 years so this wasnt a problem however it did make engineering and over hauls nearly impossible as the live reactor had to be shut down in order to carryout routine maintinance.
The issue came to light after one submarines coolant leaked causing the solution to solidify and freezing the reactor she was later taken out of service and scrapped, but the reactor unit remains in sadya bay on the kola peninsular.
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Old 06-25-2008, 10:43 AM   #6
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I would love to tour one of those boats. Maybe one day when i fully retire.... I have an Idea for the Mike boat. We have trained (allegedly dolphins to do various tasks.) How about we train Blue whales to track Submarines and stap a nice warhead on them. They should be able to dive deep enough. This is why i am for a nuke that can light off even remotely close to a deep water boat like the Mike and still take care of business.
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:57 PM   #7
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Most of the old soviet cold war boats are off limits to everyone except people who have passes *insert my stepdad here* the alfas are really small the CCP is the biggest compartment in terms of head room if your 6ft 2 plus you have had it.

the mikes were designed to out dive conventional torpdeos so a nuke detonating near it would either suck it upwards or force it down below crush depth so it could be a win win either way, but we wont know cause the thing sank in 1989 the famous K278 Komsomolets.
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Old 06-25-2008, 06:46 PM   #8
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That is a possible scenario. What I have understood about the effects of an underwater nuke going off is that it would create enough pressure to implode a boat regardless of what depth they were at. Interesting scenario needless to say either way.
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Old 07-01-2008, 11:04 AM   #9
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I just read an Interview with Boris Kolyada. He was the first Skipper to command an Alpha. He stated several time in the Interview that he regularly took the Alpha to 3000 feet. He could accelerate the boat from 6 knts to 42 knts in two minutes. I have no misconceptions on these boats. like I said before the Alpha could do 900 meters any day.
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Old 07-01-2008, 02:34 PM   #10
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what year was the interview that would tell you if he was influenced to say that, also any evedernce ? would be an intresting read.
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Old 07-02-2008, 02:07 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kapitan
what year was the interview that would tell you if he was influenced to say that, also any evedernce ? would be an intresting read.
Check out "Rising Tide" by Gary Weir and Walter Boyne. It is all about the Cold war Soviet boats. they spent a lot of time with many of the former soviet sub skippers to produce the book. Much of the soviet tactics they discussed are accurate, so i see no reason why one would exaggerate the test depth of a titanium alloy hull boat? If anything, I would think they would want to underestimate it, because then any adversary would not attempt to make a torpedo acheive those depths. In war time if need be our test depth was lifted from 1300 feet to 1900 feet and that is with HY-80. There is no reason to think that an alpha could not do 3000 feet. We all are entitled to our opinion and i respect yours.
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Old 07-02-2008, 02:28 AM   #12
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i am more intreaged than anything else, for years sources report 750meters maximum depth so i shall re dig into it.

Thanks for the heads up ~!
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Old 07-02-2008, 04:42 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frame57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kapitan
what year was the interview that would tell you if he was influenced to say that, also any evedernce ? would be an intresting read.
Check out "Rising Tide" by Gary Weir and Walter Boyne. It is all about the Cold war Soviet boats. they spent a lot of time with many of the former soviet sub skippers to produce the book. Much of the soviet tactics they discussed are accurate, so i see no reason why one would exaggerate the test depth of a titanium alloy hull boat? If anything, I would think they would want to underestimate it, because then any adversary would not attempt to make a torpedo acheive those depths. In war time if need be our test depth was lifted from 1300 feet to 1900 feet and that is with HY-80. There is no reason to think that an alpha could not do 3000 feet. We all are entitled to our opinion and i respect yours.
I have also read this book and remember reading about the captain who took the Alfa down to 3,000 feet to out manoeurve the American LA class boats. The American boats just couldn't follow them down that deep. As Kapitan says, the Mike Class is another interesting boat that could dive deep. I believe it was classed as an 'experimental' submarine and only one was ever built. It is a shame that lack of proper maintenance and poor crew training ultimately led to it's demise by fire. It is also interesting to note that some of the crew escaped from the sinking submarine in the boats escape capsule. It was jettisoned to the surface after the boat hit the bottom (5,000 feet) due to a faulty release mechanism not ejecting the capsule earlier. Unfortunately only one of the crew of five in the capsule survived when he was blasted out of the hatch by air pressure when it was opened on the surface. The capsule quickly sank once the hatch was opened taking the other four crew with it.

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Old 07-02-2008, 01:05 PM   #14
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Definitely an interesting read. The part about the escape was cool. Remember when the pod surfaced, they did not equalize pressure and one guy shot out it like a rocket? The Russian technology is very interesting. I am actually having a model of the Alpha built to ride along side my 637 class on my mantle.
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Old 07-02-2008, 01:14 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kapitan
i am more intreaged than anything else, for years sources report 750meters maximum depth so i shall re dig into it.

Thanks for the heads up ~!
Most definitely. The more resources the better. I am eager to get as much information from Russian sources about their boats. For years all we had to rely on was Janes Fighting ships and that was not always accurate info. Almost every sub in Janes was listed as being able to dive "In excess of 400 feet." Gee! Anyone could figure that out. But i guess it was all deemed classified so i guess that is what they had to print. Keep me posted on what you find. I am just a huge fan of these former adversaries. the model of the Sierra class in Sc just kicks butt. It would be awesome if someday the folks at EA model the interior to reflect a bit more of how they looked inside. Rather than any Russian sub having the same interior controls. I bet the Akula looks nothing like what we see in this game. The appearance looks like a 1960's era boat.
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