@TLAM behold the rukies fight eachother

[Kapitan]

TLAM i want to test out a few new tactics of mine and who better to test them against but a good kilo skipper, so im challenging you to a one on one duel myself in the akula and you in the kilo, i wish to learn the operational perameters from such a good skipper first hand in the kilo, and hopefully you can teach me a thing or two about the effectivness of the kilo class.

Hope you accept!

[Dr.Sid]

I can't see how Kilo could fight Akula. Maybe with high sea-state. In my MP games Akulas got my Kilo at such large distances they used subrocs on me. I didn't hear a thing.
But with high seastate I actually RAMMED AI Kilo once in Seawolf. I was inspecting link contact from helo. It was right on mark .. but I just didn't hear it from ZERO distance. Kilo was doing 0 kts and all it's noise was covered by sea noise. I learned how to use HF that time
So maybe if you select sea state to compensate for towed array .. Kilo could have a chance.

[Kapitan]

Well to make it fair we can ask a 3rd party to map a map none of us know and make it fair no one has advantages and one day before the 3rd party can email us the map and we can then play.

[To be]

That mission could strech for hours, a kilo really isn't an anti-sub capable ship. Perhaps a more objective oriented mission (Kilo defend harbor, along with some surface ships) would be a better test. Alternatly, give the kilo it's true strength, have it intercept a SAG in littoral water, with the Akula defending.

Edit: It seems TLAM won't be able to do this anyway, but if you find someone else, I wouldn't mind making you a mission, just tell me what kilo, what akula, and what objective.

[TLAM Strike]

I don't have an internet connection at home so I can't play MP.

[Kapitan]

There is always something isnt there lol who else is capible of driving the kilo and i think we should let the third party decide what type of mission we should use.

afterall it should be fair and also niether of us know.

[Cyklop]

Why do you want so desperately to hunt a Kilo with your Akula?

TLAM didn't write his guide to prove that Kilos are the best subs ever built, but to show how they can be properly used for what they were designed to do.

If you really want to prove yourself in a mission against a Kilo, I suggest the following settings:

- The Kilo is trying to intercept your convoy in shallow waters - try the Baltic Sea (sea state 3, bottom limited SSP and sandy bottom)
- You are in front of the convoy trying to detect and destroy the Kilo

Good luck.

[SeaQueen]

I'm right with you on this one. This isn't to say the Kilo is incapable of getting a kill against another submarine, because they can, but it's sort of a dice roll. Since their sonar is not so good, sometimes in the right environment you can roll up on one and both sides are undetected only to encounter each other by accident. When both sides notice they have a high bearing rate target the situation is suddenly like, "OH MY GOD! IT'S A SUBMARINE GET IT! GET IT! GET IT!" whoever shoots first generally wins in that situation. I wouldn't use a Kilo to actually hunt other submarines, though.

Originally Posted by Cyklop

If you really want to prove yourself in a mission against a Kilo, I suggest the following settings:

- The Kilo is trying to intercept your convoy in shallow waters - try the Baltic Sea (sea state 3, bottom limited SSP and sandy bottom)
- You are in front of the convoy trying to detect and destroy the Kilo

[Kapitan]

The idea here was not to prove the kilos are the best infact far from it, i know and i have indeed been in MP games with TLAM that he is a good kilo skipper, i wanted to try out some new tactics and be able to try them against a good kilo skipper, rahter than AI.

[To be]

I have a very interesting mission idea, but you would need an expert kilo driver to pull it off. However, at some [high enough] experiece level I believe the kilo driver would start having the advantage. Would really be a test the Akula driver as well, as you will need to play very well to win it if the Kilo preforms its own difficult task. But a warning, if both sides play poorly, the Akula will win. Perhaps I said too much, and the whole thing won't work

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

I'm right with you on this one. This isn't to say the Kilo is incapable of getting a kill against another submarine, because they can, but it's sort of a dice roll. Since their sonar is not so good, sometimes in the right environment you can roll up on one and both sides are undetected only to encounter each other by accident. When both sides notice they have a high bearing rate target the situation is suddenly like, "OH MY GOD! IT'S A SUBMARINE GET IT! GET IT! GET IT!" whoever shoots first generally wins in that situation. I wouldn't use a Kilo to actually hunt other submarines, though.

Rep inbound.

Oh, wait, I keep forgetting...

Neal!!!!

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

I'm right with you on this one. This isn't to say the Kilo is incapable of getting a kill against another submarine, because they can, but it's sort of a dice roll. Since their sonar is not so good, sometimes in the right environment you can roll up on one and both sides are undetected only to encounter each other by accident. When both sides notice they have a high bearing rate target the situation is suddenly like, "OH MY GOD! IT'S A SUBMARINE GET IT! GET IT! GET IT!" whoever shoots first generally wins in that situation. I wouldn't use a Kilo to actually hunt other submarines, though.

As I covered in my guide one of the few times the Kilo has the advantage over a SSN would be in a ambush type secenrio IE the SSN or a SSBN its escorting has to pass through a choke point and the Kilo blockades the chokepoint and tries to sink the SSBN. SS(K)s are great at trapping while SSNs are great at hunting.

[SeaQueen]

I wouldn't say that the Kilo is at an advantage in that situation. In the ensuing close-encounter, it'd argue it's a toss up, because what happens is, one side shoots close up and the other side counterfires close up and it all boils down to who has the better torpedo and shoots fastest. That's an extraordinarily risky situation that's as dangerous to the SS as it is to the submarine with which it's engaged.

If I was going to use an SS(K) for ASW defense, I'd definitely use it at a choke point, but I'd also use it in combination with other defenses including mines, ASW aircraft and surface warships because by itself I can't see the submarine being a consistent winner. Their sonar just isn't good enough for them to do any better than a (biased?) coin flip.

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

As I covered in my guide one of the few times the Kilo has the advantage over a SSN would be in a ambush type secenrio IE the SSN or a SSBN its escorting has to pass through a choke point and the Kilo blockades the chokepoint and tries to sink the SSBN. SS(K)s are great at trapping while SSNs are great at hunting.

[Dr.Sid]

If you want to study tactics, remove all factors except tactics. Which means, use same subs on both sides. Kilo vs. Kilo. Same weapons. Symetrical map. Then tactics and experience comes into play.

[SeaQueen]

Then it depends on what you mean by tactics. There are tactics for patrolling a chokepoint, for example. That doesn't mean the map is symmetrical, nor does the most effective tactic for patrolling a chokepoint necessarily insure the patroller prevents a transiter from making his way through the chokepoint.

Similarly, the tactics one would employ against a similar target are different from the ones one would employ against a target one has a significant advantage on due to more effective systems.

So, I don't buy that a kilo v. kilo battle is the ultimate decider of who the best tactician is. At best it only tells you who knows their boat better, but it might not even tell you that.

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

If you want to study tactics, remove all factors except tactics. Which means, use same subs on both sides. Kilo vs. Kilo. Same weapons. Symetrical map. Then tactics and experience comes into play.