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Old 11-11-2017, 07:22 AM   #1
ikalugin
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Default Blue water.... Corvettes

A Russian pr.20380 corvette stoping in Cyprus on the way from Baltic sea to Indian ocean:
 


What constitutes a blue water navy nowadays? I mean the length of deployment for those corvettes appears to be compatable with how far Falklands are from the GB.
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Old 11-11-2017, 09:19 AM   #2
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it's the mission, a Blue Water Navy can operate globally for a long period of time and is used to project power on a global scale.

The U.S. Navy would be a prime example of a blue water navy, the number of ships, men and logistical structure allows her to keep assets in almost all regions on a permanent basis.
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Old 11-11-2017, 11:53 AM   #3
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it's the mission, a Blue Water Navy can operate globally for a long period of time and is used to project power on a global scale.

The U.S. Navy would be a prime example of a blue water navy, the number of ships, men and logistical structure allows her to keep assets in almost all regions on a permanent basis.
Won't this mean that the 2nd league navies (PLAN, RuN, RN, MN etc) fall into the same category?
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Old 11-11-2017, 10:59 PM   #4
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I wouldn't classify them as second league, but yes, if the Navy has the ability to project power across the ocean, they can be considered a blue water navy.

Wikipeia has a pretty good explanation on the differences between Blue, Brown & Green water navies
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Old 11-12-2017, 06:21 AM   #5
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I wouldn't classify them as second league, but yes, if the Navy has the ability to project power across the ocean, they can be considered a blue water navy.
Why not? I mean in terms of objective statistics they are.

example of such statistics:
 


Plus there is a qualitative difference - USN could afford a true global presense due to it's numbers.
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Old 11-12-2017, 10:35 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by ikalugin View Post
Why not? I mean in terms of objective statistics they are.

example of such statistics:
 


Plus there is a qualitative difference - USN could afford a true global presense due to it's numbers.
I think maybe I mis-interpreted your use of the term "second league" to mean second-rate.
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Old 11-12-2017, 12:56 PM   #7
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Very few blue water navies in the world, and the Royal navy is still one of them.

To be blue water capable you need to have the ability to deploy a vessel for an extended time beyond the borders of your own country and to have the ability to project your power.

The following countries maintain a Blue water navy:

Category 1
United states

Category 2
United Kingdom
France

Category 3
Russia
India
Italy
Spain
Brazil

Category 4
China
Japan
Australia
South Korea
Germany

Category definitions:

1 Global reach with substantial ability to project power beyond its home waters

2 Limited global reach but maintains a substantial ability to project power beyond home waters

3 Has ocean going capability with limited ability to sustain extended on station periods and limited power projection,

4 Heavy regional influence with very limited ability to operate globally on extended operations yet maintains a sizeable force.

Latter two category are often referred to as Green water capable.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:13 AM   #8
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How come RN and RuN are in different categories?

Maybe the classification is outdated?
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:28 AM   #9
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This is current as of 2017

The differences are the UK has more overseas bases able to support their vessels along with their allies bases the Russians do not have that ability or the ports open to their vessels

Secondly the RFA has more capability than the current replenishment vessels that the Russians have plus allied replenishment ships are open for our use also

Currently the U.K. Will also have 2 carriers available by 2021 the Russians just 1
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:40 AM   #10
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This leads only to more questions, for example - why are allies accounted for and if the logistical assistance from USN is accounted for, why doesn't it make the bulk of US allied navies into 2nd class? How is the power projection and naval re supply accounted for, for example does one just bean count something (ie cruise missile capacity)? Is it accounted for now, or assuming some sort of future development?

The carrier question is interesting, because France, Russia, China, India (well 2) have the same carrier numbers at the moment (and RN has one?), by 2021 (the year RN would get the QEa done) PLAN would have 2 (maybe more if we account the ones under construction) carriers.
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Old 11-15-2017, 01:41 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikalugin View Post
This leads only to more questions, for example - why are allies accounted for and if the logistical assistance from USN is accounted for, why doesn't it make the bulk of US allied navies into 2nd class? How is the power projection and naval re supply accounted for, for example does one just bean count something (ie cruise missile capacity)? Is it accounted for now, or assuming some sort of future development?

The carrier question is interesting, because France, Russia, China, India (well 2) have the same carrier numbers at the moment (and RN has one?), by 2021 (the year RN would get the QEa done) PLAN would have 2 (maybe more if we account the ones under construction) carriers.

Its not just about Carriers its also ocean going landing ships and escort vessels, the Russian navy has a single carrier that is true however the Russian navy has limited capability for keeping it on station for extended periods of time (beyond 3 months).

Right now as it stands the Royal navy could in practice field a single carrier / Amphibious group with escorts and keep them on station pretty much indefinitely anywhere in the world.

What it boils down to is the ability to maintain through logistics and a support network the ability to keep on station your assets.

The Royal navy and also the French can sail to any part of the world and there are very few countries ports not open to them if they needed to use a port, secondly the RFA comprises of enough auxiliaries (Stores and Oilers) to provide Replenishment at sea on a constant basis.

Now add to that NATO and allied ships could also provide logistical support as does our maintained over seas bases Diago Garcia, Bahrain, Carribbean, Falklands to name a few.


The Russian navy simply does not have the over seas connections nor the ports open to them they also lack many auxiliaries to support a prolonged over seas deployment thus giving them category 3 in the ranking as a Green water navy.
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Old 11-15-2017, 01:49 PM   #12
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Quote:
Its not just about Carriers its also ocean going landing ships and escort vessels, the Russian navy has a single carrier that is true however the Russian navy has limited capability for keeping it on station for extended periods of time (beyond 3 months).
I guess our mediteranian deployment does not count then?

Quote:
Right now as it stands the Royal navy could in practice field a single carrier / Amphibious group with escorts and keep them on station pretty much indefinitely anywhere in the world.
Did I miss something and did QEs go through IOC?

Quote:
The Royal navy and also the French can sail to any part of the world and there are very few countries ports not open to them if they needed to use a port, secondly the RFA comprises of enough auxiliaries (Stores and Oilers) to provide Replenishment at sea on a constant basis.
I mean the same applies to Russian Navy, if anything we have more tankers than RN does (with auxilaries), no?

Quote:
Now add to that NATO and allied ships could also provide logistical support as does our maintained over seas bases Diago Garcia, Bahrain, Carribbean, Falklands to name a few.
This would make other NATO navies global ones as well.

Quote:
The Russian navy simply does not have the over seas connections nor the ports open to them they also lack many auxiliaries to support a prolonged over seas deployment thus giving them category 3 in the ranking as a Green water navy.
Makes me wonder if this classification is artificial.

By the way, how is power projection counted? I mean the only land strike platforms RN has are the 6 Astute SSNs, which isn't much.
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Old 11-15-2017, 02:08 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by ikalugin View Post
I guess our mediteranian deployment does not count then?


Did I miss something and did QEs go through IOC?


I mean the same applies to Russian Navy, if anything we have more tankers than RN does (with auxilaries), no?


The med deployment was not prolonged and was close to a friendly port able to provide fuel and supplies it wasn't sailing and doing its thing out of range of a friendly port like american french or British carriers do often do.

A prime example of Blue water activity from the royal navy view would be the conflict in the Falklands where they had no bases open to them and were solely reliant on the RFA and ships taken up from trade to support the fleet.

The USA you have Vietnam and Korea for examples

While the Russian navy may have more auxiliaries than the RFA your fleet size is larger than the RN, so when you do the maths fleet size v replenishment vessels it doesn't even out.

The RFA has 12 Auxiliaries with 4 on permanent standby plus a commercial vessel on permanent charter giving you the total of 17 auxiliaries for a fleet of 74 commissioned active warships in theory.

Now do the rotation rule 1/3 of the fleet is at sea or on operation at any one time and the RFA spends more time at sea than the RN as a rule.

You take the Baltic fleet 55 commissioned warships 2 submarines there are no auxiliaries in the fleet most of the vessels are coastal craft with a few DDG FFG types

Black sea fleet 45 warships 0 Auxiliaries

All the auxiliaries are with the major fleets Northern and Pacific meaning the force isnt spread out wide enough to cover all fleets and on a rotational basis you would have the ability to put out 2 or 3 oilers at most.

The RFA could post out 3 or 4 oilers for a fleet constantly for extended periods.

That's the key operations away from friend ports and support and have the ability to support a carrier group for an indefinite period.

The RN can do that without the help of her allies or friendly ports.
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Old 11-15-2017, 02:14 PM   #14
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By the way, how is power projection counted? I mean the only land strike platforms RN has are the 6 Astute SSNs, which isn't much.
Currently we have 3 astute 4 building and 3 Trafalgar 1 in reserve

We also have HMS Ocean Bulwark & Albion which are our 3 main large amphibious ships, we also have 3 RFA Bay class vessels that provide a similar role and also on top of that the 4 point class vessels which are on permanent charter to the MOD which provide the same role as above.

So in all 10 large vessels open for amphibious assault

Power projection is based around the following abilities

political, economic, informational, and military - to rapidly and effectively deploy and sustain forces in and from multiple dispersed locations to respond to crises, to contribute to deterrence, and to enhance regional stability
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