manual targeting - speed

[abchirk]

hey..
after installing another campaign mod and single missions for UBM, it could get more interesting...
But, when I try to estimate the speed of a merchant or else he always complains about "not enough data to compute the speed", similar like this

I identified the boat, checked.
I estimated the range, checked.
I set up the bow angle, checked.
But then when i try to get the speed when clicking on the clock, after lock to target or not locked to target.. he always means there is not enough data..
any hints?

although is there a mod which prevents the tdc data to deleted completely when clicked on one cross in the table...?

cheers

[abchirk]

so, 16views and noone has ever used the manual targeting?

or am I the only stupid guy who tries this!?

[tracker]

I usualy put the speed in maualy after timing between two points for 3min 15 sec for metric and 2min 58sec for yards ,but if using the stat you need to take one speed and bearing check and get the reply you get then wait a short while and re enter speed and bearing again and it gives you the speed ,but you will find it gives you daft reading some times so repeat the check a few times and see if you get two or three the same .
Also check out some of the training tutorials on the site but stick with it as it is a great game and you will find others are always trying diffrent ways of doing things to find the way they like best
good luck.

[Frederf]

Many of us don't consider the stopwatch button on the speed TDC input dial "manual targeting." Either way, it's a simple script that takes 2 bearing-range inputs and calculates a course and speed required to go from one to the other in the time between the two sightings. Being automated computer code it is very inflexible and intolerant of anything but exactly the behavior it expects.

Each of the two readings has to be of the stadimeter/bearing type where you use the stadimeter with the periscope wire on the target and click the "Update bearing" button. After you have done this twice with the correct time between (I think it has to be >10sec and <1hr but 30sec to 10 minutes is normal use).

The function only uses the last two readings. If you click the send button twice to fix the little visual bug where the torpedo red arrows don't update... that counts and you'll have to start again.

Now as far as accuracy in concerned there are all sorts of problems with the target speed-course helper function. I don't think it accounts for your own submarine's motion so if you move between sightings there will be inaccuracy. I think it does compensate for changes of own sub heading between readings but I'm not sure.

If you make a mistake on the 2nd reading the 1st reading is effectively lost and you have to start all over again. With manual plotting of bearings you can average out many readings to get a better or more confident result, which you cannot do with the helper. With manual plotting you can run the PK function while you are doing the process but with the helper you have to have PK off. Basically while you're doing the helper function the TDC is all tied up.

[abchirk]

Hi, I read those posts when you posted it... but for any reason I am not able to post a message here when using firefox under windows...


so, thx for all those nice hints... I think I got an idea for those techniques now and I think I know what I am doin now.. the rest should be fine tuning and a lot of training.

So, but I also miss not moving boats sometimes... when I set bearing it is better to add 2-3 to the actual bearing, correct? Because the torpedo just runs 10metres before he "bears" right to target?

2cnd.
How can I add a spread angle to a single torp? I can't set it, its frozen the thing for that on right side in attack map.

3rd
When target is moving which bearing I have to set... where do I see it or where should it be after my calculations? The actual bearing position of target, correct?

Thank you in advance

[abchirk]

well, here I am again, I would have post yesterday. But as I said I can't post here under windows?`

Ok, after I figured out what angle on bow means... my torpedoes hitting up to 80%

Eh and with the spread angle, I'll just take another bearing for the other torpedoes.

and to third.. I asked this because I failed always on angle on bow... so I just have to put in actual data..


My next question would be, why I don't see the torpedo course in attack map when I activated the mod AOB?

[Frederf]

1. It is best to let the computer figure it out. Best way to hit not moving boats is to turn the submarine to face the target. If the torpedo does not have to make a turn then it cannot miss. If you must shoot a torpedo that turns, make sure range is correct in TDC. The TDC figures out how much to turn the torpedo.

2. You can't. Spread angle is angle between multiple torpedoes. With one torpedo it can only go one direction.

3. You always have to set bearing to target, this is how the torpedo knows where to go even for stationary target. With a moving target you must set "AoB" which is the direction the target is moving from your point of view as well as the speed.

[heartc]

Originally Posted by Frederf

Best way to hit not moving boats is to turn the submarine to face the target. If the torpedo does not have to make a turn then it cannot miss. If you must shoot a torpedo that turns, make sure range is correct in TDC.

Range is irrelevant when the target doesn't move. You must have meant bearing.
In fact, range is the least important data with the least effect on accuracy even for moving targets.

[Frederf]

Negative. Range matters a great deal even against a stationary target. If you have TDC data

Range: 1100yd
Bearing: 056°
Speed: 0 kt

and the target is actually

Range: 4300yd
Bearing: 056°
Speed: 0 kt

You will miss.

[gutted]

Originally Posted by Frederf

Many of us don't consider the stopwatch button on the speed TDC input dial "manual targeting." Either way, it's a simple script that takes 2 bearing-range inputs and calculates a course and speed required to go from one to the other in the time between the two sightings. Being automated computer code it is very inflexible and intolerant of anything but exactly the behavior it expects.

Each of the two readings has to be of the stadimeter/bearing type where you use the stadimeter with the periscope wire on the target and click the "Update bearing" button. After you have done this twice with the correct time between (I think it has to be >10sec and <1hr but 30sec to 10 minutes is normal use).

The function only uses the last two readings. If you click the send button twice to fix the little visual bug where the torpedo red arrows don't update... that counts and you'll have to start again.

Now as far as accuracy in concerned there are all sorts of problems with the target speed-course helper function. I don't think it accounts for your own submarine's motion so if you move between sightings there will be inaccuracy. I think it does compensate for changes of own sub heading between readings but I'm not sure.

If you make a mistake on the 2nd reading the 1st reading is effectively lost and you have to start all over again. With manual plotting of bearings you can average out many readings to get a better or more confident result, which you cannot do with the helper. With manual plotting you can run the PK function while you are doing the process but with the helper you have to have PK off. Basically while you're doing the helper function the TDC is all tied up.

not true.

in regards to the fleet boats..you can be moving, and the PK can be on. I use the stopwatch all the time, right up until i fire to recheck/compare the speed and heading it gives me. once it's consistent.. i know it's good.

[kstanb]

You need 2 stadimeter reads, you need to send range and bearing to TDC in both cases,and there has to be at least 5 seconds difference to get speed.

My personal preferred method for speed calculation is:

- Start with 2 bearing-range inputs, to get speed and course, most of the times without stopping the boat (I know it can be less accurate, but if he is not closing, it is preferable)

- Position the sub in an intercept course, go to PD and dead stop, if possible, get another 2 bearing-range inputs (this will be more accurate),

- ask the sonarman to keep tracking the target, it is important to notice if he reports any change in speed, if he does, then the solution calculated is already wrong.

- When I am close, I start to get stadimeter ranges and speed*, ideally to confirm the speed I have already calculated. If the sonarman reports a change in speed or something definitively seems to be wrong with the solution and I don't have time to get another 2 bearing-range input, I will probably go with stadimeter based speed

edit: * Just forgot to mention, when calculating speed via stadimeter ranges, you need to calculate many to be sure that you got it right, good thing is it is relatively fast, so getting 5 or 6 measurements in not an issue.
Once you got something like this, at close range, 1st: 10 knots, 2nd: 15knots, 3rd: 10knot, 4th: 9knots, 5th: 11 knots, 6th: 10knots. It will be a safe bet to go with 10 knots.

[Fincuan]

Originally Posted by Frederf

Range: 1100yd
Bearing: 056°
Speed: 0 kt

and the target is actually

Range: 4300yd
Bearing: 056°
Speed: 0 kt

You will miss.

Indeed, and it's not going to be even close. Below is the same situation drawn in Mobo. A straight run of 200 yds from the periscope to the turning point is assumed before the torpedo executes an immediate turn to the bearing. In practice the turn wouldn't be immediate and the straight run would probably longer, resulting in an even bigger error.

[Morpheus]

there is also another "trick" to get the targets estimated speed...

when reporting a convoy, you can read the estemated speed from the radio log ... this can be considered as "cheating", but so what.

torpedo fireing from a german uboat in sh4 is bugged anyways, when playing stock, so take any advantage you can get.

i play with the "map update" feature and fire directely from the attack map view. it's like shooting fish in a barrel. i never miss.

maby that changes with mods like operation moonsun. i will have a try on that soon.

cheers
morph

[kstanb]

I don't consider it cheating for the only reason that the estimate is not that good anyway, last time I check, radio log estimated 5 knots and the actual 2 bearing-range input gave me 7 knots

Originally Posted by Morpheus

there is also another "trick" to get the targets estimated speed...

when reporting a convoy, you can read the estemated speed from the radio log ... this can be considered as "cheating", but so what.

[Rockin Robbins]

Since the stadimeter is cursed and a one pixel error can result in a hundred or two hundred yard difference in measured range, I always time the run between two points three minutes apart. The number of hundred yards you run in that time is the target speed in knots. A cursed stadimeter also means the estimate course and speed button is also cursed.

If you are using radar, this is a dead accurate number you can rely on. With radar, you have the additional advantage of not having to expose your periscope with the target close aboard to obtain the information. With metric, the number of hundred meters traveled between two positions 3 minutes fifteen seconds apart does the trick.

According to the Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual, all shots under a 30º gyro angle are considered straight fire and can absorb a lot of range error without missing your target. That doesn't mean you can input 750 yards for a target 3,000 yards away! But it does mean that ballpark ranges work just fine for lesser gyro angles.

In a trailing situation, I don't like the 180º AoB shot all all. Just a tiny rudder movement of the target and your torpedo misses. I like to set up for a shot that runs parallel to the target, takes a 90º turn and impacts broadside. That means range is critical! But it also means almost no possibility for the target to maneuver out of the way. The action report that begins the RFB training manual is a recounting of exactly that situation.