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Old 04-14-2019, 06:30 PM   #1
Elphaba
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Default Best 'actual' snapshot & long-range shot techniques?

There is a great thread on here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=229792

which details authentic methods the U-Boot commanders used.

However, in both cases, it relied on getting well ahead of the convoy and lying in wait; the gold standard ideal.

However, what - if any - where the techniques used for shooting at long range or snapshots where you're basically unable due to circumstances to get any real data or recognition, but need to quickly fire and hit?
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Old 04-14-2019, 06:41 PM   #2
derstosstrupp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba View Post
There is a great thread on here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=229792

which details authentic methods the U-Boot commanders used.

However, in both cases, it relied on getting well ahead of the convoy and lying in wait; the gold standard ideal.

However, what - if any - where the techniques used for shooting at long range or snapshots where you're basically unable due to circumstances to get any real data or recognition, but need to quickly fire and hit?

Enter the Ausdampfverfahren! I outline that method at the end of the document but basically, you achieve a constant bearing to target (I.e. collision course) over a few minutes, note that bearing and own speed and his eyeballed AOB, and derive his speed:

Own speed x sin(bearing) / sin(AOB)

The bearing change method over a minute is another option, but you need a range at first bearing as well as the other info as above, in which case simply guesstimate the mast height (30-35 is a good avg I think). These methods are a check on the data gleaned from overhauling in my tutorial, but they can be used on a standalone basis in a pinch by all means.

Last edited by derstosstrupp; 04-14-2019 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 04-14-2019, 07:13 PM   #3
Elphaba
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Originally Posted by derstosstrupp View Post
Enter the Ausdampfverfahren! I outline that method at the end of the document but basically, you achieve a constant bearing to target (I.e. collision course) over a few minutes, note that bearing and own speed and his eyeballed AOB, and derive his speed:

Own speed x sin(bearing) / sin(AOB)

The bearing change method over a minute is another option, but you need a range at first bearing as well as the other info as above, in which case simply guesstimate the mast height (30-35 is a good avg I think). These methods are a check on the data gleaned from overhauling in my tutorial, but they can be used on a standalone basis in a pinch by all means.
I think you misunderstood; I was already referring to those two in my question; I was asking about ADDITIONAL historically accurate techniques for when those two aren't applicable i.e. you can't get in front, or you're chasing from behind, or you just need to snap off two fish with no calculations - just some 'trick' or 'eye-balling'...
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Old 04-14-2019, 07:29 PM   #4
derstosstrupp
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Originally Posted by Elphaba View Post
I think you misunderstood; I was already referring to those two in my question; I was asking about ADDITIONAL historically accurate techniques for when those two aren't applicable i.e. you can't get in front, or you're chasing from behind, or you just need to snap off two fish with no calculations - just some 'trick' or 'eye-balling'...
Ausdampfverfahren works regardless of whether in front or not- you only need to achieve a constant bearing to calc the speed variable. Seaman’s eye is the only other way I am aware of beyond these. This was done very much, accurately and at crazy ranges - the torpedo firing reports at uboatarchive.net show Teddy Suhren as 1WO firing from the UZO from 4000 m and hitting - in the part of the report asking for how the shooting data was obtained- “by estimation”(!!!!). I need to practice.....
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Old 04-14-2019, 10:53 PM   #5
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Long range shots were never permitted according to the uboat commanders handbuch. Very frowned upon.

It was not until late war when the acoustic and pattern running torpedoes were brought into the war that a uboat could take long range shots.
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:05 PM   #6
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Long range shots were never permitted according to the uboat commanders handbuch. Very frowned upon.

It was not until late war when the acoustic and pattern running torpedoes were brought into the war that a uboat could take long range shots.
The crazy ranges were rare but the my point was that pure estimation was used very frequently. A lot of the longer range firing reports are probably boats shooting outside of the escort screen later in the war.
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Old 04-15-2019, 01:43 AM   #7
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I seem to recall, maybe from SH4 days, of a technique of setting the TDC/PK so it fires dead straight and then using a quick mental arithmetic trick turning the ship and then firing.

Does this ring a bell or is it a fragment of a dream I had?
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Old 04-15-2019, 04:14 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba View Post
I seem to recall, maybe from SH4 days, of a technique of setting the TDC/PK so it fires dead straight and then using a quick mental arithmetic trick turning the ship and then firing.

Does this ring a bell or is it a fragment of a dream I had?
Could this be what you are looking for?:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=240349

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Old 04-15-2019, 06:12 AM   #9
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The crazy ranges were rare but the my point was that pure estimation was used very frequently. A lot of the longer range firing reports are probably boats shooting outside of the escort screen later in the war.
Yeah, estimating range, speed, aob, etc. in the games isn't that difficult really. Just takes a bit of game time.
i rarely bother with drawing all over the map other than a target course line so I can set up a fast 90 attack, in which case exact range doesn't matter anyway.
Firm believer in the kiss principle.
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Old 04-15-2019, 08:00 AM   #10
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Yeah, estimating range, speed, aob, etc. in the games isn't that difficult really. Just takes a bit of game time.
i rarely bother with drawing all over the map other than a target course line so I can set up a fast 90 attack, in which case exact range doesn't matter anyway.
Firm believer in the kiss principle.
+1 to that! Plotting in Wolfpack while overtaking the target is somewhat problematic due to the fact that range in game is tough to eyeball At long range with the UZO, partly since hull-down over the horizon is not simulated. From what I’ve read, to the extent U-boats did any plotting at all, they used the mast tips’ height over the horizon as a clue for range, plotting own course and keeping the mass tips just above the horizon giving A relatively consistent clue of range which allowed a decent plot to be made (“Nibbling at the horizon” Mentioned in the U-boat commander’s handbook), Which could be further checked by matching course and Speed as well as the other methods later in the approach.

The “range doesn’t matter at zero Gyro angles” Is such an important thing, with newbies I’ve really been trying to drive that home.
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Old 04-15-2019, 09:21 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by derstosstrupp View Post
+1 to that! Plotting in Wolfpack while overtaking the target is somewhat problematic due to the fact that range in game is tough to eyeball At long range with the UZO, partly since hull-down over the horizon is not simulated. From what I’ve read, to the extent U-boats did any plotting at all, they used the mast tips’ height over the horizon as a clue for range, plotting own course and keeping the mass tips just above the horizon giving A relatively consistent clue of range which allowed a decent plot to be made (“Nibbling at the horizon” Mentioned in the U-boat commander’s handbook), Which could be further checked by matching course and Speed as well as the other methods later in the approach.

The “range doesn’t matter at zero Gyro angles” Is such an important thing, with newbies I’ve really been trying to drive that home.
Yep, I don't even worry about the range if it's not in firing range. In other words, when overtaking.
I just keep out of their visual range, while keeping them barely in mine, whatever the range is (clear, overcast, doesn't matter).
Easy enough to guesstimate their speed/course by paralleling their course for a few minutes. Can fine tune it later if desired, but that will work just fine for setting up a fast 90.
Or longer if a wolfpack is being called in; I've covered conveys for hours/all day game time several times while waiting for the go ahead.
Early war of course; radar can throw a wrench in a surface overtake.
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