Manual Targeting in TMO different from stock game?

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by Mallet

Can i ask why range doesn't factor in the Dick o'kane method? Kind of confuses me how you could pick any range and the torpedo wouldn't just turn way left to catch a target 10000 yards away versus 1000.

edit> RR beat me to it, LOL His small video is a great "perfect" situation example and gets the point across quite elegantly, however, in the real world the torpedo wakes of the first couple of torpedo(s) will most likely be seen traversing in front of the closest targets (unless of course you are using wakeless electric torpedos, gotta love those). That's one of the reasons I prefer the angular standoff shot... less chance of the wake being observed by the closer ships.

Just to clarify, in his (RR's) Dick O'Kane video he accomplishes the straight shot (zero gyro angle) by backing the TDC range setting down against the minimum range stop point.

[Rockin Robbins]

Yes, where multiple ships are concerned you must make several deals with the devil to shoot several. The further away from 90 degrees from the track you get, the smaller chance for a hit and the less error tolerant the solution becomes. Furthermore, if you shoot from ahead of the track the ships are more apt to see the oncoming torpedoes and only need to turn a fraction of a right angle to turn into the oncoming torpedoes and make them miss.

Of course you can sit 90 degrees to the track and use Mark 18s--too slow and THAT reduces your chance of hits while keeping them from seeing the wake.

Dick O'Kane, and I agree totally, said that we get darned close, target ONE target at a time and put her on the bottom. Again, simplifying the process gives maximum success. Return and target another. Repeat until the escorts split for home because they have no merchies to herd.

Yes I've seen fancy videos of multiple ship targeting and they look cool. But in practice you'll come up empty more than bag two or three. One premature explosion with six torpedoes in the water targeting three ships and all three ships go crazy and you waste a great portion of Uncle Sam's money.

Dick O'Kane said that when you have to schlepp back 6000 miles for a torpedo refill you aim every shot and keep it simple. Limit the fancy stuff!

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

Did not know that one... Thanks

Seriously, though, to me, the weather model in this game is the only thing seriously flawed enough to ruin the gameplay. I'm hoping that's one of the things addressed in Webster/Rockin Robbins new mod.

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

You know, that one wasn't even on the radar. But now it is!

<snip>

The actual weather graphic effects especially TMO's are quite OK, it's the weather duration timing that's the real problem, both directions, meaning it stays wind flat 0 way to long also, just as bad as pegged out 15 for game weeks.

Don't know if its possible but there needs to be a way of the weather generator algorithm or internal lookup charts to minimize the super long time maxing out. Doesn't matter if a maxed out effect suddenly turns the other way. That's somewhat realistic at the onset/trailing time of storms, but the only time a sub might have the possibility of the long term weather effects in game would be IF it was traveling in the same direction as the prevailing winds to/from it's base. I wouldn't even advocate for that in game either because it is the most boring part of the game traversing to/from the home base, no need to pester the gamer with a storm following him back from Japan to Midway

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Yes, where multiple ships are concerned you must make several deals with the devil to shoot several. The further away from 90 degrees from the track you get, the smaller chance for a hit and the less error tolerant the solution becomes. Furthermore, if you shoot from ahead of the track the ships are more apt to see the oncoming torpedoes and only need to turn a fraction of a right angle to turn into the oncoming torpedoes and make them miss.

Of course you can sit 90 degrees to the track and use Mark 18s--too slow and THAT reduces your chance of hits while keeping them from seeing the wake.

Dick O'Kane, and I agree totally, said that we get darned close, target ONE target at a time and put her on the bottom. Again, simplifying the process gives maximum success. Return and target another. Repeat until the escorts split for home because they have no merchies to herd.

Yes I've seen fancy videos of multiple ship targeting and they look cool. But in practice you'll come up empty more than bag two or three. One premature explosion with six torpedoes in the water targeting three ships and all three ships go crazy and you waste a great portion of Uncle Sam's money.

Dick O'Kane said that when you have to schlepp back 6000 miles for a torpedo refill you aim every shot and keep it simple. Limit the fancy stuff!

Generally, if I setup a multi-target solution, it will only be against 2 targets and of course to keep it simple they will be along the same line of sight using an angular vs perpendicular sub line-up and 10-15 AOB/Periscope lead from there, then almost always go deep and wait for the others to pass and perform an end around for a repeat on remainders.

If they are in line, I'll use slow setting torpedo(s) for the first ship, followed by fast setting torpedo(s) for the trailing second ship

If they are side by side, I'll use the fast setting torpedo for both targets as they cross the wire.

This is the part of the game simulation that I particularly enjoy, shooting, escort avoidance, and scooting, instead of immersing myself in all the stadimeter/AOB complications discussed earlier.

Morton/O'Kane did this for efficiency reasons, I do it for immersion enjoyment. LOL

[Rockin Robbins]

What I enjoy is setting up my TDC by radar information half an hour before I maneuver the boat into position and shoot! The work is already done. All I do is verify and shoot. It really helps to keep the workload down and the situational awareness up.

That being said, I've been working on understanding the wrinkles of the stadimeter/conventional American submarine attack. I don't think it's been taught right yet and I want to make a video as clear and easy to understand as my Dick O'Kane, John P Cromwell and vector analysis videos. I want people not to just be robots, plugging in numbers for unknown reasons, but having a reason and a verification and a backup plan for everything.

I don't do it much, so I'm getting enough experience that I won't be an idiot about it.

[Silavite]

After doing a little bit of mathematical mulling over the 90 degree Dick O'Kane attack, I figured out an equation that can be used to calculate the attack angle required.

Y = lead angle in degrees
X = target speed in knots
Z = torpedo speed in knots

Y = arctan(X/Z) * 57.3

Before you go and run away because this has trigonometry in it, the arctan operation does the same thing that we do when we connect our torp & target speed vectors tip to tail and measure the angle with a protractor. Arctan (or inverse tangent, they're two names for the exact same thing) spits out the angle measure (in radians, hence the multiplication by 57.3) of the angle that is opposite from leg X, and adjacent to leg Z.

Of course, using this equation without a calculator or trig sheet would be quite impractical, but I'd imagine that submariners back in the day had access to trig sheets.

In any case, this equation isn't terribly useful unless you are greater than about 2,500 yards from the target, where getting hits requires closing down on uncertainty as much as possible. For a closer in attack, RR's rules of thumb (10 degrees for slower than 15 kts, 20 degrees for greater than 15 kts) more then well enough do the job.

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by jldjs

Don't quit in a rage, try the Ctrl-N cheat to immediately change the weather!!

Tried this. using TMO/RSRDC. No Joy.

All I got was the "Yes, Sir, Sweeping" audio

Is there a particular MOD where this Ctrl-N has been redefined?

[razark]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

Tried this. using TMO/RSRDC. No Joy.

I believe you need to be on an outside view (bridge/deck gun/external camera) for it to work. That's been my experience, anyway.

Correct, sorry for leaving that out of my first reply. But, be careful, because if your visibility clears up, so does your targets!

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by razark

I believe you need to be on an outside view (bridge/deck gun/external camera) for it to work. That's been my experience, anyway.

Originally Posted by jldjs

Correct, sorry for leaving that out of my first reply. But, be careful, because if your visibility clears up, so does your targets!

Cool, I have a save right now a couple of game days back not deleted yet that has 15 meter/sec winds. I had managed to take out a Nippon Maru (10,000 ton) baby, (3 torps fired point blank 600 yards constant bearing approach, all 3 hit, one was a dud...) Took a while to go down, with an escort in the area, which I was deathly afraid was Bungo Pete (TMO/RSRDC) You're saying I gotta risk hell and high water just to use the Ctrl-N combo... Wow: LOL

I've since then advanced on purpose without waiting because 0100 I got an Ultra dispatch re:IJN heavies out of Truk headed to Tokyo and reaching a certain position in 3 days time, and I'm east near Bungo Suido. I would not use it in that situation since I consider that cheating myself out of the challenge of getting back over in position even in high seas and hoping for a little better weather somewhere along the way... it paid off, I'm gonna make it on time and the weather dropped to 9 meters/sec... doable for me if I can manage to be in front of them figuring them to be fast movers.

[Gray Lensman]

Well, tried all the outside views in combination with Ctrl <N>, still no joy... betting that something in the TMO/RSRDC combo MOD changed the key allocation. Will try it again when I reinstall with just vanilla before installing just TMO. Then we'll see what changed what... Might be a while though... Only 1943 game time now.

[Armistead]

aob is simple in the game...get the ships course relative to your sub and set that course in the tdc.

I believe Ctrl-N is a stock keyboard command and I've used it TMO as well. Perhaps you have a different keyboard key assignment?

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by jldjs

I believe Ctrl-N is a stock keyboard command and I've used it TMO as well. Perhaps you have a different keyboard key assignment?

Well that's helping to pin down the lack of it on my TMO installation

Even though I'm running TMO, it's in combination with RSRDC overlaying it. This probably confirms what Rockin Robbins implied in another thread that RSRDC did not just stick to varying the campaign files when combined with TMO, it also changed Ducimus' underlying keystroke modifications also and now I'm suspecting other things.

This is relatively minor, but now I'm really wondering what else really was deliberately changed in TMO's behavior when RSRDC was overlaid on top of it.
Everything I read in the various RSRDC documentation files implied that

Quote: (from some RSRDC documentation)

"Run Silent, Run Deep, the Campaign" (RSRDC) is a major rewrite of the campaign layers of SH4 and is designed to overcome the following major "stock" campaign problems..."

Notice the wording "campaign layers", I specifically took that to mean that RSRDC was JUST a campaign layer overwrite, and so was specifically designed to overlay the stock or other MODs without changing their other underlying behaviors. Evidence that the key assignments were changed contradicts the implication that RSRDC "is just a campaign layer overwrite".

Rockin Robbins is probably right when he implied that when playing the TMO/RSRDC combo you are no longer playing TMO... In his (Rockin Robbins) words, that combo is like an "alien" taking over the TMO body.

to Rockin Robbins for opening my eyes to pay attention to noticing subtle differences in TMO

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by razark

I believe you need to be on an outside view (bridge/deck gun/external camera) for it to work. That's been my experience, anyway.

Okay, decided to do a reinstall of TMO (without the resident evil alien takeover RSRDC mod).

It works as you described, still stating "Yes, Sir, Sweeping" however though...LOL

I guess I can take that literally as the only thing the <Ctrl><N> thing seems to do with the weather is take everything to 0 weather. "Sweeping the weather effects away so to speak, LOL". I was really kind of hoping that it was a random weather gererator change key, so that one could invoke it a few times in succession until you just came off the maxed out maximum and/or minimum weather settings. This wouldn't help at all for those periods that equally annoy me... Weeks on end of 0 weather. That's NOT real either.