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Old 09-16-17, 09:18 AM   #1
Akotalaya
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Default confused on detection

cold waters confuses me, im playing the free roam campaign with the 688, first patrol, i head out and intercept 3 subs, identify them and proceed to ready myself to attack, i approach them at the max possible distance, immediatly set myself to run silent, i basically crawl, ive got a small overall signature because im pointing myself right at them, running silent seemed to have worked well in sh5 when i would try to escape enemy destroyers yet in this game, it seems running silent litterally does nothing at all..they still detect me even though i dont feel as if they should really know im there..im so confused as to how easily detected my los angeles is and how hard it is at times for me to detect a russian sub...as well as how good their torps are at locking onto me, ive been chased and chased throwing decoys and making hard random manuvers like mad and they always seem to find me no issue, in this instance i launched a decoy 45 degrees port side, dove a few hundred feet and they took the bait, i thought i was in the clear but i guess not, because one of the torps following the decoy decided it was gonna come after me...while im running deep and quiet...like...ive seen the detection arcs on the torps...im well out of its active sonar range...yet i keep hearing the pings get louder and louder and at 1200 feet deep, it picks me up and heads down to me from around 50-100 feet deep...i cant escape it and am sunk with what i feel is a bit of an unrealistic detection, sure the game is still pretty early on but..come on...this seems a bit excessive, im playing on casual as well, but when i hear a torp has been launched i know it isnt going to end well...every time they launch, i feel like im in the middle of a bee hive and no matter how much bug spray i use, they keep on coming..its just really really strange at how torps work considering when i played silent hunter destroyers could lose me if i ran silent and went deep and on another game similar to cold waters...cant remember the name, also cold war era, fairly old..as long as i didnt make any noise such as cavitation or give them a way to detect me such as surfacing, i could come pretty close to a target and get nothing from them..but i feel as if though im as noisy as a surface ship here..am i doing something wrong?
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Old 09-16-17, 10:33 AM   #2
Akotalaya
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today isnt my day at all, i was hunting what i assumed was a small landing party, they went up the Norwegian coast, clearly surface contacts...as SOON as it took me from the map screen to the actual game part they had already spotted me and launched at me, i had zero chance in hell to get away, within 5 minutes i had several torps and had already taken a hit to my starbord side just infront of my rear dive planes..i could not escape, they just kept firing and kept firing, i choose to spawn as far away as i can, seems i spawned right ontop of an enemy ship or something...i always run silent to decrease my chances of getting spotted but this time i had no chance...anyone else have these days where they cant seem to catch a break?
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Old 09-16-17, 12:45 PM   #3
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I too have complained about the times when even at max distance setting (make sure you use 24K yds - around 12 miles) the enemy fires the moment the sim starts.
In my experience, this range is not set to the closest target and forces in a group might be even closer. In the modern sensor and threat environment, 12 miles is across the street while normal uboat engagements were 1000 yds or less.

Does the game sometimes give us a "kobayashi maru"? I think it does.

"...i head out and intercept 3 subs, identify them and proceed to ready..."

"...immediatly set myself to run silent, i basically crawl..."

"would try to escape enemy destroyers yet in this game, it seems running silent litterally does nothing at all"

There is no simple answer to your dilemma.
There may be information the sim is making available to you which you are not yet taking advantage of.
Layer:
Depending on changing circumstances, you may need to work both sides of the layer. Just above or just below has certain advantages depending on where your nearest enemy is.
Signature:
As soon as you identify your nearest contacts, pay VERY CLOSE attention to the CONTACT portion of the signature tab and keep cycling through the contacts. These estimates of how DETECTABLE you are can change rapidly.
Know your enemy:
Inspect the vessel profiles on your detected enemy. If they have towed array, it's very difficult to hide from that. Work the layer if there is one. Know how to work the shadow and to know when you cannot.
Silent:
Pay attention to CONDITIONS tab. If ambient is in low 80s or less, even a quiet sub can be heard. Consider: The average room in a home with traffic passing by and no entertainment playing is around 55-60 db. A quiet jet aircraft taking off at 100 yds can be 90 - 110 db. The mod 688i model in the game self noise is 116 compared to the default Narwhal which is 105.
Five knots is not always silent enough. Launch transients are not silent. As soon as you attack, you have given yourself away. You are now in evasion mode.
In this game, your initial attack must almost always be from the maximum range at which you have confidence your weapons are pointed in the right direction and have the endurance to reach the targets.
ESCAPE and F4 keys:
If surface ships and subs were your only threat, the game would be so easy you could p[lay it in your sleep. However, the roving dipping helos and MAD equipped aircraft are even more dangerous than your vessel opponents because they are not hampered by their own self noise. You can systematically eliminate the vessel threats before or as they detect you, but you cannot reduce the air threats. All you can do is alternatively sneak and run trying to move away from their search area.
Attack planning:
You need to use the full 3D environment vertical and horizontal. As soon as you attack, you need to switch mental gears to evasion mode. Make sure you have as much water available to you for evasion and re-engagement as possible. You cannot fight and run from inside a box.
Weapons:
Take full advantage of your weapons. Your torpedo paths can help or hurt you. The MOSS can work miracles used properly as both an offensive and defensive countermeasure.
Risk:
There are times when you need to throw all caution to the wind and charge ahead full tilt boogy confusing and forcing your enemy into the defensive, then pull in your spikes as all the noise they are making covers your escape.

These are only a few of the tactics you should be considering. Most of all, I'll say what I have said before:
Play the default game default single missions using the default vessels and the Narwhal until you can beat every mission without a sweat before you change subs to build of your experience and confidence, then switch subs, then on to the campaign. Just because a particular sub is new or cool or a favorite does not mean it's the best sub for the job.
Again:
"it seems running silent litterally does nothing at all"
Yes that is true. Keep that in mind. Once the air threats find you, you are close to the enemy, active sonar is pinging you, torps, charges and rockets are in the water, silent is your enemy, not your friend.
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Last edited by -Pv-; 09-16-17 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 09-16-17, 02:32 PM   #4
Akotalaya
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no layer, cant take advantage of that, i dont even get a firing soloution and they are already on me, i run as qiet as possible, sometimes even at a crawl, 2 kts if i have to do so, i know modern subs are nothing like second world war but come on, i have no chance most of the time as soon as i spawn in to where i can start prepping for my attack they already find my 688 and boom, im dodging torps for the next half hour before i can even identify them, i didnt expect this to be easy, but i am on casual and all...im also staying as far away as possible and as quiet as possible, but nope...detected REALLY quickly...one of my tactics has been to hug the bottom of the ocean and go at a snails pace, it works every time in sh5...so idk what to say about that, i am also using the stock 688 that comes with the game, not the 688i mod..also question if the narwhal is quieter then why isnt the thing still in use? the 688 is what we use today..are these numbers based off real numbers or is it all just for "balance"
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Old 09-16-17, 02:52 PM   #5
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688 is not a stock sub which are:
Skipjack
Sturgeon
Los Angeles
Narwhal

There are other advantages of the other subs besides noise level:
weapons, speed, depth, vessel size, sensors, turn, acceleration and dive rates, etc.
There are no magic subs in the game.

Based on the threat, you sometimes have to engage long before 100% identification to keep the enemy at a safe distance and defensive. Don't wait for the crew to ident for you if you have the time to work through the threats. Firing early, threats are forced to concentrate on your weapon and make a lot of noise which hides you and INCREASES your own detection ability as to their exact location. They will aim their active sonar on your torp to keep it located.
You need to use vertical maneuvering better.
No one piece of advice I have given works like a magic bullet. You need to use everything and be willing to switch tactics quickly and frequently. Hugging the bottom will not hide you from towed arrays. At high speed, towed arrays are useless. Observe your enemy carefully. A threat which slows down and goes quiet is listening for you. That's when their TA drops low and increases detection below the layer. A threat which speeds up rapidly and turns toward you is closing for the attack. Use the noise they are making to your advantage.
If there isn't a layer, your options are fewer. The enemy ability to detect you INCREASES especially the closer they get. Don't let them get close. If you cannot prevent them from closing on you, attack with vengeance. USE THE MOS. It's possible to use it WRONG.
Quiet isn't your only available tactic.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=233294

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Last edited by -Pv-; 09-16-17 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 09-16-17, 04:45 PM   #6
Julhelm
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If you're left-clicking your way around the strategic map, you'll start combat at 26 kts and close range, which often carries the chance they've picked you up already. A better tactic is to end-around the enemies on the map and let them come to you. This starts you off at 5kts at much better ranges.
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Old 09-16-17, 08:02 PM   #7
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A campaign tutorial in the game would be helpful. Just a one mission, "click this and that" to go to a single canned encounter. 90% or more of players will never read the manual and their first attempt will nearly always be click and see what happens. The subtle use of the three speeds while pointing the mouse may be lost on a lot of players. They'll just left click and go, running into land.

Also, a bit of geography knowledge is needed. While the briefing mentions the geographical area to be searched, the EXACT area mentioned is not necessarily included in the map labels, so the player still needs to know where Mermansk is and the North Sea, etc. Otherwise, when the target forces do appear on the map, the player is not 1000 miles away when they go invalid.

A chance to play with the map without failing the campaign would be helpful.

If nothing else, when the player reads the brief, they should have a mental picture where to find that location before they click to start the mission.
GoogleEarth could be very helpful to the geoimpared.
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Old 09-17-17, 02:42 PM   #8
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Right after posting the above, another post appeared illustrating the problem.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=233430

I encourage players to take advantage of the ESC key when entering the game which pauses the sim and lets the player get oriented on the map, inspect the tactical situation, identify the target region and plan their move.

Further, I request this feature:
Allow the escape key once pressed to activate the "Back/Return" button when pressed again so the player does not have to re-position the mouse to return to the sim.
Both missions and campaign.

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Last edited by -Pv-; 09-17-17 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 09-18-17, 01:03 AM   #9
Akotalaya
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the los angeles is the 688...anyway i do alot of manuvering on all axis, i run as quiet as i can 90% of the time but before my sensors even pick them up, i have torps coming my way...
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Old 09-18-17, 02:02 AM   #10
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I'm not having as hard a time as you are and I use "realistic" setting. I'm not seeing a lot of complaints from others that the missions are completely unwinable. I do see quite a few posts and vids that people seem to lose a lot before they get the hang of it. Have you watched videos? Tried these?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwe...1_CdFU_Mw4-SrQ

Of the default subs, the LA is not the quietest but it is the fastest.

Added:
"but before my sensors even pick them up, i have torps coming my way... "
You'll never see aircraft on your sensors and their weapons will come out of nowhere unless you are lucky enough to see them drop a sonobuoy first (rare.)
If you listen carefully, you can hear them pass overhead.
This is why I mentioned the ESC and F4 keys which give you a clue these things are hanging around. In your ownship 3D view, look all around and you should be able to spot a helo dipping a sonar near you. If you pass near that location making noise in a quiet environment, you will NOT escape notice. They will not only attack you with their own weapons, but will vector supporting weapons from any nearby ships.
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Last edited by -Pv-; 09-18-17 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 09-19-17, 11:51 AM   #11
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Akotalaya, the recommendations that -Pv- gives are spot on. You should be taking them to heart.

That being said, I wonder if the "casual" difficulty mode got somehow mixed up with the highest difficulty level, thus explaining the insty-shooting from the AI?

Maybe try the next level up in difficulty, and see if things suddenly get easier.
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Old 09-20-17, 11:52 AM   #12
Delgard
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Just a comment...

My sonar initially gets a bearing or "cut". For analysis at that point, that is all it is. I could wait around for better "fix" on the contact, but most often, I fire with a command (me) analysis of when to set the torpedo to go active.

Maybe more neutrals will reduce my "quick to fire" attitude. But, then again, it is a war zone.

Using the thermal layers, turning to get a better "fix" than just the original "cut" and leaning towards staying deep, it all plays into the play of CW.

I have noticed that threat surface vessels and submarines (sometimes) do fire back when detecting a my torpedo launch and I am comfortable with that. That is what I would do.

I would like it if the sonar panel had a signature for threat torpedoes. I wonder if my sonar operators need training on torpedoes moving through the water. I suspect that torpedoes are noisier than submarines.

Hope helps.
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