SUBSIM Radio Room Forums



SUBSIM: The Web's #1 resource for all submarine & naval simulations since 1997

Go Back   SUBSIM Radio Room Forums > General > General Topics
Forget password? Reset here

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-12-19, 11:14 AM   #1
Skybird
Soaring
 
Skybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: the mental asylum named Germany
Posts: 40,339
Downloads: 9
Uploads: 0


Default Meet one of Russia's master puppet players

I have him on my radar since long. Of course I perceive him as an opponent of the Western states, he is, absolutely. But I admire him for his cleverness with which he not only surives but actively plays this game of global chess, adding a dimension of psychological warfare to it that is so much hidden like a puppet inside a puppet inside a puppet inside a puppet, that almost every decison maker and analyst in the West gives me the impression that he completely escapes to even realize that something is going on. Its names like his why I think that the Russians simply played the West against the wall since two decades. An extremely dangerous mind. And not in any need to hide it at all. That should make you think!

https://translate.google.de/translat...%3Dde-homepage

Quote:
"Foreign politicians blame Russia for interference in elections and referendums. The reality is much more serious: Russia interferes with her brain, and they do not know what to do with their altered consciousness. "
(...)
"Western experts are amazed at the "abnormal preferences of the Elektorate," Surkov writes: they are at a loss, and that is why they have spoken of an "invasion of populism." "You can call it that if you can not find words," Surkow mocks.

Moscow stands for the solution of the problems that Europe has, according to the Putin consultant - for a return to national. Quote: "When everyone was crazy about globalization and swarmed about a flat, borderless world, Moscow reminded us that sovereignty and national interests are important." Many accused Russia of "naïve attachment" to old ways, which was allegedly out of fashion long ago: "We have been taught that we should not stick to the values ​​of the 19th century, but move into the 21st century, in which There are no longer any sovereign nations and no nation states. "

In reality, however, everything happened "in the Moscow style" in the 21st century, says Surkov, who uses a wording that leaves a lot of room for maneuver: you can translate it to a trivialization that everything happened the way Moscow saw it; but most Russians will understand his choice of words in such a way that everything came just as Moscow has enforced and staged.

Examples include Putin's mastermind Donald Trump's electoral victory, Brexit and, so to speak, "the anti-migration foreclosure of Europe": all these are "just the first points in a long list of" ubiquitous developments towards de-globalization, restoration of sovereignty and nationalism ". The sentence reads like an announcement.

Russia's anti-globalist emphasis on strong national sovereignty is increasingly gaining worldwide acceptance, the 54-year-old wrote. The political system of Russia will last for another century and serve as a model for other countries around the world, he predicted: " Putin's system of power" is the "ideology of the future" and " an effective means of survival and nationhood for the next decades. "
Yes, the Russians know a thing or two about chess. And plans behind plans behind plans. When I check that to the German Weiberwirtschaft and the reality denial in Brussel... well... its a sad, sad story...

The upcoming uncertainty however is who will replace Putin one day. But it seems there are quite some names who will carry on with his heritage, whether the West likes that or not. And it was to expected hat Putin still is just one man only and canot rule and surive such a big country without a staff of capable, simliar minds around him. Just the Western hope that Russia after Putin's leave will just return again and repeat the mistake of the 90s - I think that hope is just naive.
__________________
If you feel nuts, consult an expert.
Skybird is online   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-19, 11:34 AM   #2
ikalugin
Ocean Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 3,212
Downloads: 8
Uploads: 0


Default

Surkov being discussed seriously ha-ha.
__________________
Grumpy as always.
ikalugin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-19, 11:35 AM   #3
Skybird
Soaring
 
Skybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: the mental asylum named Germany
Posts: 40,339
Downloads: 9
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybird View Post
I have him on my radar since long. Of course I perceive him as an opponent of the Western states, he is, absolutely. But I admire him for his cleverness with which he not only surives but actively plays this game of global chess, adding a dimension of psychological warfare to it that is so much hidden like a puppet inside a puppet inside a puppet inside a puppet, that almost every decison maker and analyst in the West gives me the impression that he completely escapes to even realize that something is going on. Its names like his why I think that the Russians simply played the West against the wall since two decades. An extremely dangerous mind. And not in any need to hide it at all. That should make you think!

https://translate.google.de/translat...%3Dde-homepage


Yes, the Russians know a thing or two about chess. And plans behind plans behind plans. When I check that to the German Weiberwirtschaft and the reality denial in Brussel... well... its a sad, sad story...

The upcoming uncertainty however is who will replace Putin one day. But it seems there are quite some names who will carry on with his heritage, whether the West likes that or not. And it was to expected hat Putin still is just one man only and canot rule and surive such a big country without a staff of capable, simliar minds around him. Just the Western hope that Russia after Putin's leave will just return again and repeat the mistake of the 90s - I think that hope is just naive.

This is from 2005.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-361236.html
__________________
If you feel nuts, consult an expert.
Skybird is online   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-19, 12:12 PM   #4
ikalugin
Ocean Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 3,212
Downloads: 8
Uploads: 0


Default

This was over a decade ago. In the turbulent political climate we have he is currently not very relevant as a policy maker. In fact some of the people who made the decision to go forward with the Crimean operation (~5 years ago) are no longer running things but I guess such internal subtelties are lost to the external observer if they perceive the Russian political system as a grey monolyth.
__________________
Grumpy as always.
ikalugin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-19, 12:17 PM   #5
Skybird
Soaring
 
Skybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: the mental asylum named Germany
Posts: 40,339
Downloads: 9
Uploads: 0


Default

It shows one certain thing.

Because not many high profiled names from that turmoil survived politically long enough to still be around - and stronger than ever.

And I think you perfectly play into his interests.


https://medium.com/@wmilam/the-theat...v-9dd8a15e0efb


This is not the reputation and biography of a man that is as insignificant as you try to make him appear. I lost track of many names coming and going in Russian politics, especially those the cameras of the world usually focus on in the news, I am not even that interested in them at all. His name I never have let slip. Too many strings and pointers in the past one and a half decade pointed at his direction.
__________________
If you feel nuts, consult an expert.
Skybird is online   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-19, 12:33 PM   #6
ikalugin
Ocean Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 3,212
Downloads: 8
Uploads: 0


Default

Surkov has never recovered since he got kicked from the internal policy seat in the administration due to the white ribbon protests. Since then there were already two different people in that position, who have set different policies and had different administrative style, with the most recent being what you would call a very long runner (he apointed Putin to his first big federal post - the head of the FSB).
Recently (past 5 years) Surkov only had a very minor role in coordinating the state and non state actors in Donbas, because broad foreighn policy was (and is) in other hands.



And this is just the normal policy maker rotation based on their performance and does not account for burn outs (ie Ivanov), so the actual fluctuation in the policy making is much, much more significant across the state.


Quote:
And I think you perfectly play into his interests.
Thing is, I know quite a few of those policy makers and have (as extension of my family) my own intersts in the broader game.
Which is why I sort of need to know who sets the course and what their style is.
__________________
Grumpy as always.

Last edited by ikalugin; 02-12-19 at 12:41 PM.
ikalugin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-19, 02:47 PM   #7
Skybird
Soaring
 
Skybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: the mental asylum named Germany
Posts: 40,339
Downloads: 9
Uploads: 0


Default

Your minimising of Surkov'S role in the past years and the events on the Crimean do not match with the role he has played there as a masterminding script writer as reported in Western media already years ago.



But we have disagreed on the unfolding of the Crimean annexation in the past before. Maybe the disagreement on Surkov just is consistent, then.



It tells somehting about his talent or/and relevance if in a regime like Putin's you get kicked from higher ranks - but instead of disappearing in political oblivion making a comeback due to a nod by the great leader - who actually was the one resurrecting him. There were quite some names at thew top ten in the past 15 years who - once fallen from favor - never were seen or mentioned again.
__________________
If you feel nuts, consult an expert.
Skybird is online   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-19, 04:33 PM   #8
Catfish
Dipped Squirrel Operative
 
Catfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky
Posts: 16,880
Downloads: 38
Uploads: 0


Default

I do trust Garri Kasparov a lot more

I've said since years that Russia tries to undermine its felt enemies with lies, deception and desinformation. Trump and brexit are only small outcomes, but if you look at "social" (lmao) media you get a glimpse what is really going on. It is destabilisation from the lowest level, and it works. The destruction of the EU is the wet dream of Putin, and he has his useful idiots everywhere. I do not want to villify or demonize him, he just supports the chaos and helps it along, supporting the far right wherever possible.

"The propaganda in the Internet age does not want to convince any longer of a certain point of view. She wants to exhaust your critical thinking skills instead. Putin with his Russian troll factories has mastered this masterly, I have to grant him that. In the old days of communism, propaganda was a black and white thinking: the good against the bad. What did not fit, was concealed. Today there is a flood instead of a dam. Putin is not a salesman of ideologies, I call him a dealer of doubt. That's him."

Excellent article (translation is... well.. Google)
How do you want to save democracy, Mr Kasparov?

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/th...gible-optimist
__________________


>^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

Last edited by Catfish; 02-12-19 at 04:50 PM.
Catfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-19, 05:52 PM   #9
Skybird
Soaring
 
Skybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: the mental asylum named Germany
Posts: 40,339
Downloads: 9
Uploads: 0


Default

Whatever Putin does , has a purpose serving Russian goals (from his perception, which seems to match that of many Russians as well). Time spend on trying o villify Putin, is time wasted. It smnore important to see through the spider web of Russia'S decpeitons, and understand what Russias sees as its own interests.

What instead happens is demanding Russia to again behave stupid and to its disadvantage, as is it had no interests. But I think th yindeed are ahead in thinking. Their move to abandon their dollar reserves almost completely, is one such - while in the West "econiomists" openly rason about how to plunder private saviners most efficiently in order to gain a little bit more time to go on with the old nightmare party. When the FIAT money collapses, I bet Russia will be much better off to deal with thzat, than states in the West, for the mentioned reason and because it is more robust in self-sustaining and autarky - while the Western social communities and industries are hilariously depending on global production chains and have replaced advance stocks management (if that is the correct term) with on-time-delivery. Several Gerna car akers recently learnbewd the hard way how vulnerable this has made them to even micro crisis with their sub contractors.

I more or less fully share the Russian scepticism on globalization, I always was sceptical about that, and I never believed that it makes sense to make a potential rival strong in the present so that he can put me under pressure in the future. And the missionary spirit behind this, the flawed logic not even mentioned, just makes me laugh these days. Also, while some companies may benefit from it, globalization also produces an awful lot of loosers. It is no win-win-game for both, often not even a zero-sum game.
__________________
If you feel nuts, consult an expert.
Skybird is online   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-19, 06:36 PM   #10
ikalugin
Ocean Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 3,212
Downloads: 8
Uploads: 0


Default

O dear, some one takes Kasparov seriously. It is like taking Alex Johnes seriously as an authority on the US Government.


What makes me sad is how the West is attributing it's own internal issues (and behaviour of it's own people) to Russian trolls or other such causes.
This would damage the West by far more than any Russian actor could, with their scarce resources.
And it would be an even greater tragedy than the fall of the USSR should the Western open societies fail this way.
__________________
Grumpy as always.
ikalugin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-19, 02:44 AM   #11
Catfish
Dipped Squirrel Operative
 
Catfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky
Posts: 16,880
Downloads: 38
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikalugin View Post
O dear, some one takes Kasparov seriously. It is like taking Alex Johnes seriously as an authority on the US Government.[...]
Oh, there is a slight difference between Kasparov and Jones

But people like Bannon, Trump, Farage and Aaron Banks do take Alex Jones seriously! Putin must be laughing all day that he was able to help this and the right wingers destroying traditional bonds within the West, with rumours, half-knowledge, gut feeling and desinformation

Farage disgusting appearance on the Alex Jones show

"Putin is not a salesman of ideologies, I call him a dealer of doubt."
Hit and sunk.

I would like to believe you and Putin's entirely peaceful goals, just to wake "us" up since he has so much sympathy and understanding for the poor, troubled west. But then, you know...

I have respect and sympathy for Russians, but please don't try to tell me the russian government aka Putin system, or the chinese one, is any better, more humanitarian, more democratic, more capable/efficient or superior to western ones, just because Putin was able to place a useful idiot at the head of the "West", and maybe able to destroy the EU in convincing other useful idiots it is better to fall back to isolation, nationalism and tearing up treaties.

What makes me sad is that there is no real humanitarian or "better" (in whatever context) alternative for the Trump and Farage circus we have currently here. It seems all this bull including Russia and China and its obvious expansion goals is still the best what mankind can do. And this is indeed sad.
__________________


>^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.
Catfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-19, 10:38 AM   #12
ikalugin
Ocean Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 3,212
Downloads: 8
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
just because Putin was able to place a useful idiot at the head of the "West", and maybe able to destroy the EU
Perversely you are the useful idiot if you believe in those things.


Because if you attribute the internal Western issues to Russian actions you are not going to do anything about them.
And then those issues bloom into Trump, Brexit etc, creating a self reinforcing cycle of perceived Russian intervention and lack of real solutions.



Quote:
It seems all this bull including Russia and China and its obvious expansion goals is still the best what mankind can do.
The monopolar moment is ending.


Quote:
I would like to believe you and Putin's entirely peaceful goals, just to wake "us" up since he has so much sympathy and understanding for the poor, troubled west. But then, you know...
He is reactionary.

I have linked the FAS article on the INF before in the US thread for example.
__________________
Grumpy as always.

Last edited by ikalugin; 02-13-19 at 10:51 AM.
ikalugin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-19, 05:45 AM   #13
Catfish
Dipped Squirrel Operative
 
Catfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky
Posts: 16,880
Downloads: 38
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikalugin View Post
[... letting out some insult here] Because if you attribute the internal Western issues to Russian actions you are not going to do anything about them.
True. However it is also true that Russia has tried to meddle with other countries' elections and democratic procedures. Ever heard of the St. Petersburg troll farm, or the IRA, or Cambridge Analytica, for that matter?
It would be easier to deal with populism, extremists and racism without Russia's interference. But if we succeed even now, it will have been a good drill for the future and how to deal with it. (And then there is of course retaliation, although democracies are naturally easier to disturb than one-man dictatorships).

Quote:
And then those issues bloom into Trump, Brexit etc, creating a self reinforcing cycle of perceived Russian intervention and lack of real solutions. [...]
It is not a "perceived" intervention but a real one. Evident. Trump and brexit may have happened without Russia, but i seriously doubt it.

Quote:
The monopolar moment is ending.
He [Putin] is reactionary.
I have linked the FAS article on the INF before in the US thread for example.
If "monopolar moment" is ending, interpreting 'monopolar' for 'one superpower' (lol) it is not because of Russia, but China. Was it ever truly monopolar? It may have been bipolar until 1989, but Russia is not (yet, but trying) a superpower and a real threat again, especially because of its economy.

If we interprete 'monopolar' as having one united West, others try to destabilize it of course.

Regarding Putin being "reactionary", do you still have the link to the FAS article you mentioned?
__________________


>^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

Last edited by Catfish; 02-15-19 at 06:35 AM.
Catfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1995- 2024 Subsim®
"Subsim" is a registered trademark, all rights reserved.