[REL] FOTRS Ultimate Project

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

What is the problem with Type 93 61 cm (24") Torpedoes on surface ships they started using them in 1935? Almost all of the DD and Cruisers of the IJN ships who carried fish had them. They accounted for losses on the United States side of 11 cruisers, 11 destroyers, and one fleet aircraft carrier.


Nothing like dumbing down the mod huh? I really like those ships firing fish at me. It is fun.

Now The Type 95 53.3 cm (21") Torpedoes were assigned for IJN submarines boats.


Many times you only needed one Type 93 to sink a ship where as the Americans had lower yield warheads (357 lbs less) and needed more for each ship ... after they corrected their depth and detonation errors.

It was also very quick to reload for it's size and during the campaign for Guadalcanal Canal they became invaluable against of the American ships. It wasn't until 1943 that the Americans got to see a Type93 and exam it. The Americans had no equal to the Type 93 until 1945.

I would argue the type 95 was vastly inferior to the American torpedoes. it's extensive range tended to fool the captains of Japanese submarines into thinking that range was actually useful. The only time it was useful was, like the type 93, when you were targeting a GROUP of enemy ships and didn't care much which ones you hit AND you didn't mind missing most of your shots as long as half of the hit. They launched masses of torpedoes for this work from surface ships.

In fact, the error envelope of the type 95 submarine torpedo was such that from 4,000 yards, WAY inside its operational range its aiming error envelope was greater than the length of any ship you could shoot it at. At its extreme range the aim point was accurate to plus or minus half a mile.

Just like the depth capability of the U-boats was a tactical disaster and utterly useless (a submarine's job is to be dangerous and a sub at 600 meters is absolutely harmless), inaccurate torpedoes with extreme range are similarly useless, first of all because they seduce you into firing from too far away and second, because when you do so they miss.

It reminds me of all the hand-wringing popularly done about the Sherman tank vs the Panther and Tiger tanks. The Sherman won the war, doing what it was best at. The superior capabilities of Panthers and Tigers didn't contribute to winning the war, or the battle for that matter. They were statistical victories only.

American torpedoes didn't have the numbers. So captains got in too damned close and shot too many torpedoes--just what you need to put enemy shipping on the bottom. They did it a lot.

The type 95 was justifiable in surface ships. The type 93 was a lost cause in a submarine. Winning strategy in war: don't waste time with capability that doesn't directly contribute to winning the war.

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

Speaking of reading,

"Reports of the U.S. Naval Technical Mission To Japan (1945 – 1946)"

and the "US Strategic Bombing Survey – Pacific War"

========================

GREAT READS CaptScurvy:

I was delighted to read the report of Japanese Naval Photography. Asahi made spectacular optics during the war. They bought the right to a new name from East German VEB Zeiss Ikon and became Pentax!

The half century old lenses from ASAHI I use today on modern DSLR cameras produce incredibly wonderful images.

JAPANESE TORPEDOES AND TUBES

Was an interesting confirmation on the use of 24" torpedoes on all Destroyers, Light and Heavy Cruisers.

Is the Type 93 used in the MOD ranged for 22,000 yards and 49 knots as the real one was?

I have enjoyed seeing them come after me but fortunately none have hit so far.

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

The type 95 was justifiable in surface ships. The type 93 was a lost cause in a submarine. Winning strategy in war: don't waste time with capability that doesn't directly contribute to winning the war.

I agree the 21" Type 95 was woefully inadequate for submarine use. The unmovable fact of history is that they used the 21" Type 95 in submarines but the Capital ships who had torpedoes carried the 24" Type 93 torpedo and had done so for 10 years. The arrogance of the Empire certainly contributed to a lack of innovation.

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

I shall look for this. While I appreciate the New York Times sentiment about the book I find the actually War Reports to be more detailed and "Authoritative" when it comes to submarine action by the americans in the Pacific during World War II.

I recall discussion in years past on the forums concerning things people would like to see in the game especially when they found in life some american Captains had done those thing.

If you would enjoy reading what the american submarines did by way of their captains speaking to you then read these.

U.S. WW II SUBMARINE WAR PATROL REPORTS

well, try not to be too harsh, there, cowboy. clay blair published in 1975. those war reports weren't released until well into the first decade of the 21st century...and one has to subscribe to download them. i am sure they have material that is not in 'silent victory' but they will have to wait until they are more generally available before i will be in a position to read them.

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

... Is the Type 93 used in the MOD ranged for 22,000 yards and 49 knots as the real one was?...

Not to divulge too many "trade secrets", but no, they are not modded to do that. Speed? maybe, but not the range...

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

... and one has to subscribe to download them. i am sure they have material that is not in 'silent victory' ...

The San Francisco museum has them online, which will direct your browser to the scribd site, but you don't have to download and subscribe. At least, not yet: https://maritime.org/doc/subreports.htm - those are one of several sources used for Silent Victory, but of course, he used on-site microfilm...

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Not to divulge too many "trade secrets", but no, they are not modded to do that. Speed? maybe, but not the range...


The San Francisco museum has them online, which will direct your browser to the scribd site, but you don't have to download and subscribe. At least, not yet: https://maritime.org/doc/subreports.htm - those are one of several sources used for Silent Victory, but of course, he used on-site microfilm...

yep, and when you attempt to download the document you have to subscribe (with credit card) to some BS subscription BEFORE you can perform the actual download.
no, thank you, very much.

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

..................….was an interesting confirmation on the use of 24" torpedoes on all Destroyers, Light and Heavy Cruisers.

Is the Type 93 used in the MOD ranged for 22,000 yards and 49 knots as the real one was?

I have enjoyed seeing them come after me but fortunately none have hit so far.

You remember me telling folks a few pages back that in order to make modifications work in-game it's simply a matter of taking a known working effect and changing it, with a little magic, into something else. We don't have access to the hard coded files, we just take what's given us and make it look/act differently.

Well, that's exactly how I got the torpedoes to fire from enemy ships towards targets it detects. The launchers are invisible deck guns, firing a shell (a visible torpedo is the shell), that happens to travel a distance long enough to appear as if it's traveling towards a target. Nothing more. Changing the shell model to a torpedo, and modifying it's data is what makes it. There are no specific capabilities to having a shell actually travel in the friction filled environment of water, so there's no way to get it to go a specific distance. Heck, I was lucky to have it appear somewhat reasonable only after pushing up the traveling speed to unrealistic values. Not to mention the fact that the "torpedo guns" are truly only aiming at positions that are wildly spaced.

A deck gun will hit a target because of the shell speed....it aim's, then fires. The speed of the shell in frictionless mid air get's it to the target before the target moves out of the initial aim. In water, at the slower speeds, your lucky to even get the torpedo (shell) to over come the friction loss beyond a few 100 feet. I did it, but there's no "leading of target" at all....the deck guns do not "lead" targets. They just fire and the shell speed when traveling in the frictionless air takes the shell to the target before it moves off. The torpedo is a different animal that's only a fraction of what the real torpedoes were. No way to make it any better, just lucky to get it to work at all. I'm amused to think guys will ask if it's traveling at the real life speed or is the right color or the correct size!?!

Let's just say it's magic......and forget trying to get something to perform exactly as in real life when we can't make the real life object perform as it should due to the limits of the game.

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

yep, and when you attempt to download the document you have to subscribe (with credit card) to some BS subscription BEFORE you can perform the actual download.
no, thank you, very much.

Exactly. Don't download. The browser should open a window with a visible scan picture, like a pdf, and you can scroll up and down the pictures of the microfiche in the browser. The first page always has "Start of Reel - Job Number __"

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Exactly. Don't download. The browser should open a window with a visible scan picture, like a pdf, and you can scroll up and down the pictures of the microfiche in the browser. The first page always has "Start of Reel - Job Number __"

very difficult to read a photograph of a copy of a aged typewritten set of navy reports. i believe that our yeoman used the same typewriter when i did my hitch in 1971.

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

Is the Type 93 used in the MOD ranged for 22,000 yards and 49 knots as the real one was?

I have enjoyed seeing them come after me but fortunately none have hit so far.

you've been lucky. first time out with FOTRSU .71 and i failed to read all of the documentation so i missed the piece about DD's returning fire with torpedos.
hello davy jones.

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Exactly. Don't download. The browser should open a window with a visible scan picture, like a pdf, and you can scroll up and down the pictures of the microfiche in the browser. The first page always has "Start of Reel - Job Number __"

You can download free for the first 30 days or you can upload your own material in exchange for downloads of your choice.

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

you've been lucky. first time out with FOTRSU .71 and i failed to read all of the documentation so i missed the piece about DD's returning fire with torpedos.
hello davy jones.

... and those circular running fish the US Fleet boat has are wonderful as well.

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

very difficult to read a photograph of a copy of a aged typewritten set of navy reports. i believe that our yeoman used the same typewriter when i did my hitch in 1971.

Dont' forget, they were doing manual typewriters, making at least three copies at a time, using carbon paper between the sheets... - When I hired on the railroad in '74, we used "onion skin" paper with double-sided carbon papers in an old Underwood beast from 1884, and would try to make nine copies of orders at a time... didn't always work too well when the carbons got a little old. Sometimes, you'd end up making "stencils" of the front copy...

And for merc's entertainment:



this was from several versions back, prior to the enemy subs shooting back. In fact, they couldn't move if submerged - but they can now... Anyway, points to be noted:

1. I went Ahead Flank, but didn't turn away from the circler.
2. I didn't try a crash dive to get below it.

I do both now... The boat did sink, about 15 minutes after the video ends. Yes, we did destroy all code books and the radar gear, as well as the tdc, but couldn't set the charges because she just went down too fast...

[VIIC1941]

The submarine brakes too slowly, even if ordered "back emergency".
Is this happen in a real boat?

[hauangua]

Originally Posted by VIIC1941

The submarine brakes too slowly, even if ordered "back emergency".
Is this happen in a real boat?

Yes, the water is not the road surface, the friction is much lower, a submarine of 1500/2000 tons, in speed, can not "brake" like a bus