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Old 06-10-18, 08:33 AM   #1
Onkel Neal
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Icon9 Mexico is screwed

Man, I knew it was bad but this really puts it in perspective.
This Mexican candidate had just vowed to tackle crime. Then a gunman shot him dead.

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The Mexican congressional candidate had just left a debate hall where he addressed public security in his northern state. He walks over to a person holding a phone and poses for a picture. In a matter of seconds, a man walks up from behind and shoots him in the head, killing him before walking off.

The death Friday night of Coahuila state's Fernando Puron brought to 112 the number of candidates or politicians killed since the launch of Mexico's electoral campaign in September, according to the consulting group Etellekt. Puron was the first candidate running on the federal level to be killed.
My god, this is insane. It sounds like Mexico is just a few steps away from turning into Somalia. Organized crime has its roots deep into the country's law enforcement and political power.

And half of our country are bubbling with excitement about letting millions of these people in and legalizing their status. Trump was dead on right when he said the criminals of Mexico are entrenched in the US; they are mixed in with the laborers and families looking for work, and liberal Democrats are working overtime to see that they are not molested and safe in sanctuary cities.
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Old 06-10-18, 09:03 AM   #2
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I would not mock any US president seriously consideirng to invade and annex Mexico. Its not on the other side of the planet - its right on your doorstep.

However, you then end up in a seat comparable to the Israelis regarding the Palestinians.

Doomed if you do and doomed if you dont.

Walls sometimes are a reasonable solution. Especially when they are not meant to keep own people in (Eastgerman wall), but to keep bad guys out - man has done like that since many, many, many centuries and millenia with his towns and villages.

Its insane what a hopelessly perverted sense of "libelaism" today makes people i the West to agree to. Open boarders. Asylum for everybody. Endless payments to and endless patience for offenders. A whole industry building up around keeping these deformations of a free society alive.

Much of what the idea of free private cities is basing on, is missing in Western states today. And thats why they fail.

https://freeprivatecities.com/

To me, after 200 years of modern democracy and Western statehood, this concept by which the West wants to define itself, has failed. Law and order is in decline, often actively violated by the states themselves. The social systems cannot be maintained anymore. The military potence to defend oneself is being given up. No controls and no border protection there should be. People nmever havign done anything for their new country the ymoved to, imem dioately hslal have all benefits and rights, while all too often not compensating by giving back accordingly.

This cannot go well endlessly. It must crash down, by all rules of logic.
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Old 06-10-18, 09:14 AM   #3
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Fear will make the citizens of Mexico stronger till the one that rules returns the favor to the fear mongrels ...

Mexico is a harsh climate the hot peppers in their food disguise the flavor of the pork, beef or sea food that lacks refrigeration. The skin pigment is from an unrelentless sun bearing down on a civilization far older than ours.

Mexico will survive ... will the USA?
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Old 06-10-18, 12:15 PM   #4
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This is what happens when the government makes it illegal for citizens to own firearms. You don't hear the anti-gun groups bragging about Mexico's unarmed citizens. Only the army, police, and drug cartels are allowed to have guns. Having corrupt army units and police forces doesn't help.
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Old 06-10-18, 12:24 PM   #5
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This is what happens when the government makes it illegal for citizens to own firearms. You don't hear the anti-gun groups bragging about Mexico's unarmed citizens. Only the army, police, and drug cartels are allowed to have guns. Having corrupt army units and police forces doesn't help.
You are pro gun. I get that but the pro gun arguementation is really out of place here. The reasons then? Try poverty and rampant corruption since pretty much day 1 in Mexico's existence. Hand in hand, they make the breeding ground for drug gangs -> cartels. More guns is not how you solve that.
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Old 06-10-18, 12:25 PM   #6
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Most probably a drug cartel murder. If you read one of Winslow's books.. the situation is really unbelievably ugly. I can understand anyone who wants to flee from there.

Guns, of course. But even if all Mexicans were allowed to bear arms, it would just be a neverending civil war, against the drug animals.
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Old 06-10-18, 12:50 PM   #7
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Most probably a drug cartel murder. If you read one of Winslow's books.. the situation is really unbelievably ugly. I can understand anyone who wants to flee from there.

Guns, of course. But even if all Mexicans were allowed to bear arms, it would just be a neverending civil war, against the drug animals.
True, but at least it would be a fight
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Old 06-10-18, 01:19 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Cremer View Post
This is what happens when the government makes it illegal for citizens to own firearms. You don't hear the anti-gun groups bragging about Mexico's unarmed citizens. Only the army, police, and drug cartels are allowed to have guns. Having corrupt army units and police forces doesn't help.
Mexicans are allowed to buy and own firearms.
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Old 06-10-18, 01:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dowly View Post
Mexicans are allowed to buy and own firearms.



i see your 1 eye roll and raise you 1 eye roll as Pete seems to make a good point. I wonder too if the gun used was part of 'Project Gun Runner'.


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mexican...ns-but-few-do/

MEXICO CITY - There’s just one place in all of Mexico where you can legally buy a gun. It’s tucked away in an anonymous building on an army base in the capital, staffed by soldiers.
Mexico’s constitution guarantees citizens’ right to own a handgun and hunting rifles for self-defense and sport. Legally getting your hands on one, however, requires clearing a series of bureaucratic hurdles far stricter than in the U.S. and, for many customers, traveling great distances to reach the country’s lone gun store.
In fact, most of Mexico’s 120 million inhabitants probably don’t even know about the Directorate of Arms and Munitions Sales – it’s prohibited from advertising any of its goods or the mere fact that it exists.
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Old 06-10-18, 02:27 PM   #10
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i see your 1 eye roll and raise you 1 eye roll as Pete seems to make a good point.
He tries to make a pro-gun case by saying "Look! This is what happens when the government makes it illegal for citizens to own firearms" which in this case is incorrect since one can buy and own a firearm in Mexico.
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Old 06-10-18, 02:41 PM   #11
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Since the main problem is the cartels and drugs, it would be better to concentrate on that.
Or, to rephrase:
From where do the drug cartels get the money for their 'infrastructure', and arms?
Where do they mostly sell their drugs?
Any chance to come to grips with drug consumption, or to handle that aspect?

How would those cartels fare if drugs were legalized, in the US? I mean it won't happen and i'm not a friend of such policies, just a what-if
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Old 06-10-18, 03:52 PM   #12
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I recently read a bit about the city satate oif Singapore. Singapore has some of the most "draconic" laws in rule one could imagine. For exmaple, drug offences all too moften trigger the detah penalty. But it is a city that has no major drug problems, and is one of the safiest citie son the planet.


The firat amndinstrator of the city experienced the occupation of China by the Japanese. This man said that although people were poor, were suffering and had not much to own at all, they remained to be hoinest and stayed away from becoming criminal. That was becasue the Japanese punished even minor crimes and offences with very drastically. Dratsical punishment does work, he concluded, and form the views of Behaviorism and the research for it done in the 50s and 60s, I also would say that it is expected to work.


What this man also concluded was that the Western law philosphy of resocialising b efore punishment, and endless patience, and that if people are well situated and live in a socially stable environment they would not become criminal, does not work. And that is my reasoning, too: it works at least extremely badly.



Somebody has to go into Mexico, and enforce a draconic sanctioning of crime and malicious anarchy. Three eyes for one eye, six teeth for one teeth - this kind of law and order. Were you see corruption, kill the corrupted. Wipe the cirminals out, no matter whether small fishes or big bosses.


This is th eonly thing that will work. Nobody likes ot hear that, I do not olike to say it. But that is the only thing that could work. Mexico more and more becomes a growing wound inside thr two Americas, and like any bodily infection it will start to - and already does - spread.



Not just since reading about Singapore I think that the Western law system is very severly messed up with it resocialising prioprity. It just does not work. I also do not like it for always putting emphasis on the interests and outlook of the perpetrator, and minimises the attention and interest for tzhe victims.



A wall is only a temporary measure a slong as it is not as tight as the inner German deathzone was, or the NorthKorean-SouthKorean border is - including shoot-to-kill orders. Mexico must be pacified, and you cannot have that without a full military invasion, and a super-tough crackdown on corrupted elites and organised crime. The US has messed arpound for far less riobust interests in Irak, afghanistan, Soimalia, and elsewhere. But Mexico it leaves untouched although of all these possible and/or real scenarios Mexico is the clearest and biggest danger to the US?


Okay. Not my place, not my interest. Just saying. Just one thing is clear by now: Mexico by now is a 100% failed state. With all negative consequences that come from that and that radiate into the neighbouring states.
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Old 06-10-18, 04:14 PM   #13
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^ All good and well in theory.

Of course an invasion and killing all of the bastards will work. We have seen this in Germany after WW2, when all the former elites were instantly re-installed, to get at least a bit of control over a wrecked country. 'De-Nazification', my donkey. This was the reason for the '68 student revolts, when the young found out about reality.
Singapore is a very bad example, Asians are way more easily brought under control by draconic measures, while Mexicans will more probably revolt. Of course "you" can shoot them all.

What you and a lot more seem to completely misunderstand is where the root of the problem is. Even shooting them all will not cure the problem, only the symptom – if at all.

The US agency DEA fights a decades long war against the drug cartels, against corrupt politicians and against the Mafia. And both are situated in.. the US.
Another problem is the CIA. When Reagan (ab)used the CIA to deal with drugs and finance some of his invasions, the DEA, while having a hard time doing so, exposed all of those lies and drug deals. This information was not directly suppressed, it was just that nobody wanted to hear about it.
The genereal philosophy is like "There is always going to be a drug trade and a drug cartel, it might as well be our drug cartel."

If you invade Mexico and "kill all", Columbia will gladly get into business. And then there is Afghanistan. And so on.
There is a heroine epidemic in the USA, but also in parts of Europe. As long as this persists, there is no easy final solution.

Some more info on one of the drug lords:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/don-wi...about-el-chapo
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Old 06-10-18, 04:35 PM   #14
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If you invade Mexico and "kill all", Columbia will gladly get into business.
I think they learned their lesson already, besides they're going to be the leader in the legal mary jane business now. Oh, and they really hate when you spell the name wrong.

Medellin looks so inviting that I think I'm going to live there instead of Quenca. Girls, food, weather, mountains, paragliding, girls. Wohoo!

We'll have the troops to man the border as soon as they get back from the DMZ. Hopefully within the year, don't even need anything in return from Rocket Man, and I'd promise to never return no matter what!
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Old 06-10-18, 04:48 PM   #15
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Yes Catfish, its all the US' fault. As usual.



I am very much aware of the CIA operation to finance the contras by findign them aways to sell drugs on the Us market, and all that. However, this is not the cause of the problem.



Already in 2006, I had written here in the forum, or linked to, a long essay on the then young Afghanistan war, 30 pages or so, title was "Trapped in the Afghan maze". And already in that I recommended a work by A.W. McCoy, The Politics of Heroin: CIA complicity in the global drug trade. -LINK- My copy of that found a wet grave in the strong rain flooding we had some years ago, but that long I know already about what you point at. you must not tell me.



The problem is that even where you attacks on the US in parts may be correct or indicate a shared guilt for theirs indeed, you ruin it by claiming it is all only their exclusive guilt, and no other factors play in. Its always the US' guilt alone, and you imply by that if the US would fall back, then all would be good since then the source of evil in the world has vanished. Man, that is so typically German far left leaning. And it is a mutilated, simplified carricature of reality. And it simply is wrong. But you complained in the past when I call you out as a left? Stop bringing up the German left's claims and arguments, and I stop associating you with them. That simple it is.



The book by McCoy is very good, btw, if you are interested in that matter serioulsy. I just found it a bit difficult to read, and cannot even say why. I recall that it was very sober, maybe that was why I struggled with its English.



Mexico now is what it is. How it got there, can obviously argue dabiut, but it doe snot really matter. How to contain the plague from spreading - that is what its about now. And just appelaing to them and hoping that reason will prevail, will not do anythging, nor will any fincial transfers or open border policies.


If the US woulkd go into Mexico and then recruit all those corrupted policemen and officials and politicans, then I cannot help them. But my laughs will be on them. In Iraq, they fired all the RG officers and Baathist big names, different to wehat you just implied they would do in mexico. Again, in Iraq it worked terribly against them, and the country. You cannot compoare, obviously, the case of post-war Gewrmany, Iraq and Mexico. Its comparing apples, oranges and bananas.
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