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Old 08-11-17, 08:13 AM   #1
Onkel Neal
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Support List your Top Ten Merchant ships to include in a new subsim

Ahoy !

As you know, we are working on a new subsim, Wolfpack. The devs have about finished the escort and aviation models, now they are starting on the merchant ships -- the targets!

What are the top ten ship classes you would want to see in the game? Sure, they can make generic tankers and freighters, but are there specific examples of ships that were really common or that are critical to get in the game to increase realism?

thanks for your thoughts!
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Old 08-11-17, 08:42 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onkel Neal View Post
As you know, we are working on a new subsim, Wolfpack.
No, I didn't know. Could you provide a link please ?
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Old 08-11-17, 10:47 AM   #3
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Hi Onkel 6 ship classes i would like to see in your new Wolfpack Uboat Simulation
would it be possible to have differnt shipping company livereys in early war years 1939-1941 Neutral Shipping with there national flag painted on side of ships hull like in the merchant fleet mod.
Medium Linners 10,000-16,000grt some with two funnels some with one some refitted as Armed Merchant Cruisers
Also Q/Ships with HUF/DUF High Frequancy Radio Dection Gear sending contact info to escorts later in the war.
Would it be possible to have a mission editor in Wolfpack so Mission Creators can
write missions it would make Wolfpack the envy of the civilized world and the best thing since sliced bread.


Last edited by blackswan40; 08-11-17 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 08-11-17, 04:00 PM   #4
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One thing I've said many times before are woefully lacking, and one thing that all the merchant ship makers seem to avoid, are the most common ships of them all: The many coasters - steamships of 500 tons or less. There were thousands of them plying their trade all over Europe, and not one exists in any game I've seen.



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Old 08-11-17, 06:40 PM   #5
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YES!!!!!! This has got me very interested! My suggestions:

1) Long Bridge Deck Merchant (~4,000 GRT)



Old, medium sized cargo ships designed to carry high volume, low weight cargoes like grain and cotton.
The deck extends in front of and behind the superstructure to increase volume.
Could carry general cargo, as well. Many dozens built for Ropner & Harrison lines (British), but also used by other countries.
There were hundreds of ships like this, with various minor detail differences to ventilators, bridge shape, etc

2) "Baron Carnegie" Type Dry Cargo Ship (~3,000 - 3,800 GRT)



Old, slow, small cargo ships built in Britain.
Dozens of this type were built, and there were many other near sisters to this design.
Commonly encountered (and sunk) in SC North Atlantic convoys or sailing unescorted.

3) "Canadian Reefer" Type Refrigerated Merchant (~2,000 GRT)



Modern, small refrigerated ships with a high speed.
Once again, many dozens of this general kind
built in the late 1930's for many countries (note the modern styling).

4) "Fort/Park/Empire" Type Large Modern Freighter (~6,800 - 7,200 GRT)



Large, slow, generic cargo ship built specifically
for the war between 1939-1945. Hundreds built in the UK
and Canada. Many were CAM-ships, with a
Hurricane mounted on the bow.
Note minesweeping gear on the masts.

5) "British Aviator" Type Tanker, and Near Sisters (~6,800 - 7,000 GRT)



Medium-sized tankers built in Britan between WWI and WWII.
They were an EXTREMELY common design;
possibly 100 or more built. Of course, they were prime targets for submarines...dozens were sunk, with heavy loss of life.

6) Hog Islander Merchant (~ 5,000 GRT)



Well over 100 Hog Islanders were constructed; they served in many different merchant fleets, as you may know.
The SH4 Hog Islander has bad proportions;
the SH5 version is an excellent model, IMHO.
Should be included, although we are all used to it!

7) "War" Class old Medium Merchant (5,200 GRT)



Hundreds of the "War" class were built during WWI in Britain;
EXTREMELY common in WWII. Many were sunk
in the Atlantic on convoy duty.
Note the broad forward deckhouse, small bridge,
and small funnel. Mostly used by Great Britain
and Greece, although a few other countries
had them. When they were built they all
had "War" names ("War Viper", "War Knight", etc)
- After WWI ended shipping companies
gave them whatever names they wanted.

8) "Victor Ross" / "Geo W. McKnight" Tankers (~ 11,000 - 13,000 GRT)



Very large oil tankers built for Esso & its affiliates...
looked almost exactly alike, with minor
differences in funnel & bridge size.
Late in the war, they often carried deck
cargo like locomotives, fighters, & PT-Boats
in addition to the fuel cargo.

9) "Elin K" Medium Modern Merchant (5,200 GRT)



Not a class, but hundreds of nearly
identical modern Scandinavian dry cargo
ships were like her - nice streamlined look,
big funnel, sharp bow, and rounded stern.
Very common design for Swedish,
Norwegian, Dutch, and British shipping lines.

10) "Commercial Trader" Small Merchant (2,600 GRT)



The "Commercial Trader" (seen here under
old name "Delaware River") was an old merchant that was
part of America's WWI shipbuilding program -
she had dozens (possibly hundreds) of sisters.
Very common US type.
She avoided WWI because she wasn't finished
until 1920, but was unlucky enough to be sunk in WWII.


I didn't include Liberties & T-2's; they kind of go without saying....

**********************************************

A few notes:

It would be great to see tons of details with the merchant shipping! In appearance, and behavior:

-Realistic appearance as the war goes on. After a country enters the war, a ship should be camoflaged. Enemy ships in civilian colors in 1945? total immersion killer! By 1941, British merchantmen should be camo-colored with no visible names. Weaponry, extra rafts, and tanks/fighter planes on deck are a plus.

-Varying weaponry. Early in the war, merchantmen with very few rounds of ammo, and worn-out guns. Smoke floats to launch at attacking subs.

-Please, Please have Neutral ships with funnel colors, lights, country name, and flags painted on their sides. As they join the war, they should change to camo. I know you can't research every shipping company....there should be the option for modders to add paint schemes, etc easily.

-Hospital ships and Diplomat Transports.

-Realistic routing. NO HUGE TANKERS/LINERS IN THE NORTH SEA! In real life many ports did not have the depth to handle large ships. If you want to sink large ships you should have to head for major ports and the Western Approaches in the Atlantic. North Sea/Channel/Coastal traffic should be mostly small ships.

-On a related note, no convoys with too many large ships. In SH5 I still find that too many ships are over 6,000 tons; it is too easy to rack up tonnage.

-"At Rest" and "Abandon Ship" animations for the crew

-Different deck cargoes, from fighters to freight cars....everything an army needs.

-Different internal cargoes (Iron Ore, Steel, Grain, Lumber, Ammunition), with appropriate effects. An ore carrier will sink fast. A ship with timber may take 3 torpedoes to sink.

-Fire spreading gradually...secondary explosions, and burned out skins replacing undamaged skins as fire takes hold - especially on tankers. Ammunition ships breaking in many large parts, or simply disintegrating in a huge mushroom cloud...Varying fire, smoke, and fume effects depending on cargo. Breakups when a ship tilts (like "Titanic"). Damage control/fire fighting, until a ship is mortally damaged.

-Some crews fight to the end, while others abandon a lightly damaged ship.

-High seas should make it almost impossible to steam after a torpedo hit. No SH3 "ships limp through a storm for hours". In real life, sailing after a torpedo hit would cause structural failure, if the weather was bad.

-Proper damage modeling. Ships should go dead in the water more easily.... 1-2 shells fracturing the main steam pipe in any area of a merchantman should kill the engine. On the other hand, no overpowered deck gun - anything bigger than about 2,000 tons should take lots of shell hits to sink. Faster sinking if you hit near a large hull compartment.... one ace (Kretschmer, Schepke?)
was an expert at torpedoing the bulkhead between a cargo ship's main holds and engine room.

-Rescue attempts. Tugs, Destroyers, and Corvettes should try to pick up crew, fight fires & tow damaged ships, if enough escorts are available. Doesn't need to be ultra detailed, with each man being hauled up - at a minimum, make an AI routine with escorts approaching a damaged ship for X number of minutes. No escorts swarming after the player's sub, leaving the convoy undefended (and survivors to drown!) Think of how different the Battle of the Atlantic would have been if Destroyers didn't have to worry about saving lives, and all ships were crewed by soulless robots (a la SH3).

-Escorts sinking ships damaged beyond repair, so they can't be captured.

-Mechanical failures, stragglers, and sneaking out of convoy. Valuable tankers & liners placed in the center, with smaller ships on the outside of the convoy.

-Signal flags, rockets, and semaphore men on the bridges. Convoy Commodores and Rescue Ships. Sinking Commodore/Vice Commodore/Rescue Ship affecting morale, with the convoy getting disorganized or even scattering, if the wolfpack is too strong.

-Option to assist survivors, capture valuable survivors like captains (only 1 or 2, due to space limitations), and get intelligence information.

Thanks! I bet you'll include each and every one of my suggestions!

Seriously, though, I have THOUSANDS of photos, diagrams, and line drawings of WWII merchant ships in my collection...... I am more than happy to serve as a resource! Many of my books are extremely rare, including original ID images that date from 1942.

Last edited by iambecomelife; 08-11-17 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 08-11-17, 08:41 PM   #6
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Just a tiny sample from one of my publications available....I am happy to scan and email a lot more! Only restriction is, of course, no original images in the final version of any game documents, etc due to copyright law.















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Old 09-05-17, 04:36 PM   #7
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I wouldn't mind seeing the occasional coasters as mentioned previously. Minesweepers and layers too.

For the Soviets, why not some icebreakers for the northern routes into Kola?
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Old 09-18-17, 05:29 PM   #8
Onkel Neal
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Awesome feedback, thanks. Sorry for the delay in responding but I've been dealing with a little hurricane issue down here Nothing major but helping friends, work demands, etc.

I would like to add you guys to the Wolfpack Advisory Board, you have really got some good ideas and suggestions. I will reply below.

But remember Rule 1: It's a matter of resources. we are a small team; one programmer and one artist, and me (mostly getting in the way). So don't forget, it is easy to come up with good ideas to make the game better but not easy at all getting them all into the program. There are some that are vital and lot that are optional. Again, it's all a matter of resources.



Quote:
Originally Posted by blackswan40 View Post
Hi Onkel 6 ship classes i would like to see in your new Wolfpack Uboat Simulation
would it be possible to have differnt shipping company livereys in early war years 1939-1941 Neutral Shipping with there national flag painted on side of ships hull like in the merchant fleet mod.
Medium Linners 10,000-16,000grt some with two funnels some with one some refitted as Armed Merchant Cruisers
Also Q/Ships with HUF/DUF High Frequancy Radio Dection Gear sending contact info to escorts later in the war.
Would it be possible to have a mission editor in Wolfpack so Mission Creators can
write missions it would make Wolfpack the envy of the civilized world and the best thing since sliced bread.


Yes sir, I think the way Oscar described the generic ship generator portion of his program, with a database to store the specifics, ships will be generated with slight variations in length, structure, colors and appearance, and perhaps shipping company liveries could be added. That certainly would be really realistic looking, yeah? I think so too. Q Ships are very high on my list, a mission editor would probably be something to come later, but I don't know for sure, depends on how the devs come up with tools to make the missions.







Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor Steve View Post
One thing I've said many times before are woefully lacking, and one thing that all the merchant ship makers seem to avoid, are the most common ships of them all: The many coasters - steamships of 500 tons or less. There were thousands of them plying their trade all over Europe, and not one exists in any game I've seen.

Yes, ok, that's true, and that would be pretty nice to give the player crew choices to make: go for the small coastal ship sailing slow and alone, or the larger merchant with the escort.





Quote:
Originally Posted by iambecomelife View Post
YES!!!!!! This has got me very interested! My suggestions:

1) Long Bridge Deck Merchant (~4,000 GRT)



Old, medium sized cargo ships designed to carry high volume, low weight cargoes like grain and cotton.
The deck extends in front of and behind the superstructure to increase volume.
Could carry general cargo, as well. Many dozens built for Ropner & Harrison lines (British), but also used by other countries.
There were hundreds of ships like this, with various minor detail differences to ventilators, bridge shape, etc

2) "Baron Carnegie" Type Dry Cargo Ship (~3,000 - 3,800 GRT)



Old, slow, small cargo ships built in Britain.
Dozens of this type were built, and there were many other near sisters to this design.
Commonly encountered (and sunk) in SC North Atlantic convoys or sailing unescorted.

3) "Canadian Reefer" Type Refrigerated Merchant (~2,000 GRT)



Modern, small refrigerated ships with a high speed.
Once again, many dozens of this general kind
built in the late 1930's for many countries (note the modern styling).

4) "Fort/Park/Empire" Type Large Modern Freighter (~6,800 - 7,200 GRT)



Large, slow, generic cargo ship built specifically
for the war between 1939-1945. Hundreds built in the UK
and Canada. Many were CAM-ships, with a
Hurricane mounted on the bow.
Note minesweeping gear on the masts.

5) "British Aviator" Type Tanker, and Near Sisters (~6,800 - 7,000 GRT)



Medium-sized tankers built in Britan between WWI and WWII.
They were an EXTREMELY common design;
possibly 100 or more built. Of course, they were prime targets for submarines...dozens were sunk, with heavy loss of life.

6) Hog Islander Merchant (~ 5,000 GRT)



Well over 100 Hog Islanders were constructed; they served in many different merchant fleets, as you may know.
The SH4 Hog Islander has bad proportions;
the SH5 version is an excellent model, IMHO.
Should be included, although we are all used to it!

7) "War" Class old Medium Merchant (5,200 GRT)



Hundreds of the "War" class were built during WWI in Britain;
EXTREMELY common in WWII. Many were sunk
in the Atlantic on convoy duty.
Note the broad forward deckhouse, small bridge,
and small funnel. Mostly used by Great Britain
and Greece, although a few other countries
had them. When they were built they all
had "War" names ("War Viper", "War Knight", etc)
- After WWI ended shipping companies
gave them whatever names they wanted.

8) "Victor Ross" / "Geo W. McKnight" Tankers (~ 11,000 - 13,000 GRT)



Very large oil tankers built for Esso & its affiliates...
looked almost exactly alike, with minor
differences in funnel & bridge size.
Late in the war, they often carried deck
cargo like locomotives, fighters, & PT-Boats
in addition to the fuel cargo.

9) "Elin K" Medium Modern Merchant (5,200 GRT)



Not a class, but hundreds of nearly
identical modern Scandinavian dry cargo
ships were like her - nice streamlined look,
big funnel, sharp bow, and rounded stern.
Very common design for Swedish,
Norwegian, Dutch, and British shipping lines.

10) "Commercial Trader" Small Merchant (2,600 GRT)



The "Commercial Trader" (seen here under
old name "Delaware River") was an old merchant that was
part of America's WWI shipbuilding program -
she had dozens (possibly hundreds) of sisters.
Very common US type.
She avoided WWI because she wasn't finished
until 1920, but was unlucky enough to be sunk in WWII.


I didn't include Liberties & T-2's; they kind of go without saying....

**********************************************

A few notes:

It would be great to see tons of details with the merchant shipping! In appearance, and behavior:

-Realistic appearance as the war goes on. After a country enters the war, a ship should be camoflaged. Enemy ships in civilian colors in 1945? total immersion killer! By 1941, British merchantmen should be camo-colored with no visible names. Weaponry, extra rafts, and tanks/fighter planes on deck are a plus.

-Varying weaponry. Early in the war, merchantmen with very few rounds of ammo, and worn-out guns. Smoke floats to launch at attacking subs.

-Please, Please have Neutral ships with funnel colors, lights, country name, and flags painted on their sides. As they join the war, they should change to camo. I know you can't research every shipping company....there should be the option for modders to add paint schemes, etc easily.

-Hospital ships and Diplomat Transports.

-Realistic routing. NO HUGE TANKERS/LINERS IN THE NORTH SEA! In real life many ports did not have the depth to handle large ships. If you want to sink large ships you should have to head for major ports and the Western Approaches in the Atlantic. North Sea/Channel/Coastal traffic should be mostly small ships.

-On a related note, no convoys with too many large ships. In SH5 I still find that too many ships are over 6,000 tons; it is too easy to rack up tonnage.

-"At Rest" and "Abandon Ship" animations for the crew

-Different deck cargoes, from fighters to freight cars....everything an army needs.

-Different internal cargoes (Iron Ore, Steel, Grain, Lumber, Ammunition), with appropriate effects. An ore carrier will sink fast. A ship with timber may take 3 torpedoes to sink.

-Fire spreading gradually...secondary explosions, and burned out skins replacing undamaged skins as fire takes hold - especially on tankers. Ammunition ships breaking in many large parts, or simply disintegrating in a huge mushroom cloud...Varying fire, smoke, and fume effects depending on cargo. Breakups when a ship tilts (like "Titanic"). Damage control/fire fighting, until a ship is mortally damaged.

-Some crews fight to the end, while others abandon a lightly damaged ship.

-High seas should make it almost impossible to steam after a torpedo hit. No SH3 "ships limp through a storm for hours". In real life, sailing after a torpedo hit would cause structural failure, if the weather was bad.

-Proper damage modeling. Ships should go dead in the water more easily.... 1-2 shells fracturing the main steam pipe in any area of a merchantman should kill the engine. On the other hand, no overpowered deck gun - anything bigger than about 2,000 tons should take lots of shell hits to sink. Faster sinking if you hit near a large hull compartment.... one ace (Kretschmer, Schepke?)
was an expert at torpedoing the bulkhead between a cargo ship's main holds and engine room.

-Rescue attempts. Tugs, Destroyers, and Corvettes should try to pick up crew, fight fires & tow damaged ships, if enough escorts are available. Doesn't need to be ultra detailed, with each man being hauled up - at a minimum, make an AI routine with escorts approaching a damaged ship for X number of minutes. No escorts swarming after the player's sub, leaving the convoy undefended (and survivors to drown!) Think of how different the Battle of the Atlantic would have been if Destroyers didn't have to worry about saving lives, and all ships were crewed by soulless robots (a la SH3).

-Escorts sinking ships damaged beyond repair, so they can't be captured.

-Mechanical failures, stragglers, and sneaking out of convoy. Valuable tankers & liners placed in the center, with smaller ships on the outside of the convoy.

-Signal flags, rockets, and semaphore men on the bridges. Convoy Commodores and Rescue Ships. Sinking Commodore/Vice Commodore/Rescue Ship affecting morale, with the convoy getting disorganized or even scattering, if the wolfpack is too strong.

-Option to assist survivors, capture valuable survivors like captains (only 1 or 2, due to space limitations), and get intelligence information.

Thanks! I bet you'll include each and every one of my suggestions!

Seriously, though, I have THOUSANDS of photos, diagrams, and line drawings of WWII merchant ships in my collection...... I am more than happy to serve as a resource! Many of my books are extremely rare, including original ID images that date from 1942.
Wow, you just wrote my Bible. I can only dream of things like crew animations and escorts finishing off their own charges, but a lot of what you recommend is really valuable.

I will send you a PM, I think you have the knowledge and source materials to make this work at a higher level than I hoped for.
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Old 09-21-17, 04:45 PM   #9
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PM'ed you back; I will be back in touch soon!!!
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Old 10-09-17, 04:59 PM   #10
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Just FYI my computer was shipped; getting ready for work but I will be in touch again. A little concept art:

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Old 10-09-17, 10:13 PM   #11
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Old 10-09-17, 10:24 PM   #12
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This looks awesome, but I am confused why it is being put in the SH3 forum. Is it because this game will use the SH3 engine?
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Old 10-15-17, 08:58 AM   #13
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I posted here because this is a hub of experts.
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Old 10-15-17, 11:36 AM   #14
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PM for Onkel Neal!

Somewhat bad news in that I couldn't ship many of my books - the good news is I'm working hard compiling replacement pictures!
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Old 10-24-17, 02:15 AM   #15
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PM sent [again], Onkel Neal. XD
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