50/60's era US Sonar Systems?

missleman01 · 11-25-07, 07:19 PM

Howdy,

One mystery Ive always had is the look of US 50/60s era sonar. I have no good sources.

When did the waterfal displays start...Was this something developed in time for Skipjacks, or was this Sturgeon and later?

When was HF available?
What about narrowband identification and DEMON systems?

What kinds of sonar were available on Guppy, Nautilus, Triton, or Skate type boats?

Mainly curious for personal interest, but also wondering how far off 688i interfaces are if I use SCX to play Skipjack.

Sea Demon · 11-25-07, 11:43 PM

I know a guy who used to serve on a Permit Class SSN. He told me that they used rolls of paper or something like that in the 70's when interpreting sonar data. I wasn't quite sure what he meant as he didn't elaborate. But he did say the move to BQQ-5 with digital waterfall displays was a dream come true. I think he said that was sometime in the early 80's.

Linton · 11-26-07, 04:56 AM

Send a message to Bill,he shold be able to tell you.

Bill Nichols · 11-26-07, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by missleman01

What kinds of sonar were available on Guppy, Nautilus, Triton, or Skate type boats?
.

On Nautilus we had the following (years 1977-80):

BQR-2 cylindrical passive array
BQS-4 active sonar
BQR-4 conformal passive array (predecessor to the BQR-7 on Permint/Sturgeon)
DUUG-2 active intercept system (a French system)
DEMON
"Gertrude" underwater telephone

Of the above BQX systems, the BQR-2 worked best

We didn't have electronic waterfall displays but we did have a pen-and-ink 'time vs bearing' display of broadband noise similar to what is shown in Sub Command/Dangerous Waters.

We also had an early/experimental narrowband processor, but Nautilus was so noisy that narrowband was practically useless.

Here's a sea story 4U:

When I first joined Nautilus I was assigned as Sonar Officer. The BQS-4 system was broke (required a special vacuum tube to fix) and remained out-of-commission for nearly the entire time I was aboard. Finally (sometime in 1979, I believe) the tube arrived and we could do active again. Shortly afterward, we were helping one of the newer 637 boats do a 'workup' prior to deployment. We were supposed to exercise with a surface ship while the other boat tried to covertly collect intel on what we were doing.

Well, we began our exercise and never got a sniff of the 'intruding' sub on passive. Finally, our CO ordered an active search -- when we lit off our active we found the other boat just 1000 yards away!

missleman01 · 11-26-07, 01:27 PM

Thanks for the response. Its very helpful.

I guess my next line of thinking would be first...what would it take to change the waterfall graphics in Sub Command (if even possible at all) to look like a pen and ink vertical paper printout instead of a green waterfall.

I guess second would be to the SCX people. Do all the 60s US and Soviet boats have properly degraded sonar range and frequency capabilities already as SCX stands today?

Sea Demon · 11-26-07, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Nichols

We didn't have electronic waterfall displays but we did have a pen-and-ink 'time vs bearing' display of broadband noise similar to what is shown in Sub Command/Dangerous Waters.

That's what the guy told me. He served on SSN-604 Haddo.

Bill Nichols · 11-26-07, 04:55 PM

Oh, and just to add a little more: For fire control we had the old, WW2-era position keeper, just like the one in SH4. Ours had been modified to interface with the then 'modern' weapons control panel for the Mk48s we carried.

The position keeper was in a case about the size of a kitchen refridgerator. One time it broke down and I got to see the innards: a hyper-dense pack of gears, wheels, etc. like a watch on steroids (it was a mechanical computer). We couldn't fix it and had to call for help from Electric Boat. They sent some old geezer who must have learned his trade during the 'big one', I understand he was the only person at EB who know how to repair the thing! In any case, he did us good and we were up and running in less than a day.

XabbaRus · 11-26-07, 06:21 PM

I wonder if you had a dotmatrix printer if you could capture the output from the BB sonar screen in SC and print it out real time?

FERdeBOER · 11-26-07, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

I wonder if you had a dotmatrix printer if you could capture the output from the BB sonar screen in SC and print it out real time?

Whould be nice but... is not easier (and, over all, cheaper) the solution of missleman01 of changing the waterfall color to simulate paper and ink? :hmm:

jmr · 11-26-07, 07:57 PM

Wouldn't the dot-matrix printer give your position away? :}

FERdeBOER · 11-27-07, 06:13 AM

And it will be not very ecologic...

... and were you put all those amount of paper since you return to port? :hmm:

TLAM Strike · 12-01-07, 03:17 PM

Read here:
Cold War US Sonar Devlopment www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/history/cold-war-asw.html
GUPPY Submarines incl Sonar outfits: http://guppysubmarinetribute.homestead.com/Tribute.html

missleman01 · 12-02-07, 09:12 PM

Some good reference material. Thanks for it.

Now I just need to find what the BQR-2s and 4s look like compared to a BQR-5 interface

TLAM Strike · 12-06-07, 03:57 PM

TLAM Brings the goodies for ya:

A printer style sonar display from a modern British SSN:

Sonar system on Grayback class submarine BQR-2B:

Sonar system on GUPPY class submarine BQR-2:

Sonar system on USS Albacore AGSS 569:

missleman01 · 12-06-07, 05:19 PM

Wow! Thanks TLAM. Thats excellent material...plenty to get gears turning....

Im tempted to go dive into the SC file structure and look around. I dont know how embedded graphics and sub type settings are...but knowing what the sonar systems should look like is inspiring enough to go try.

To make a Skipjack iface, youd have to modify image and color components of sonar displays, and mix and match stations...

hmmmm

11-25-07, 07:19 PM	#1
missleman01 Seaman Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 41 Downloads: 79 Uploads: 0	50/60's era US Sonar Systems? Howdy, One mystery Ive always had is the look of US 50/60s era sonar. I have no good sources. When did the waterfal displays start...Was this something developed in time for Skipjacks, or was this Sturgeon and later? When was HF available? What about narrowband identification and DEMON systems? What kinds of sonar were available on Guppy, Nautilus, Triton, or Skate type boats? Mainly curious for personal interest, but also wondering how far off 688i interfaces are if I use SCX to play Skipjack.

11-26-07, 04:56 AM	#3
Linton Sea Lord Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,898 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Send a message to Bill,he shold be able to tell you. __________________ http://lintonsview.blogspot.com/ Last edited by Linton; 11-26-07 at 11:56 AM.

11-26-07, 04:55 PM	#7
Bill Nichols Master of Defense Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 1,502 Downloads: 125 Uploads: 0	Oh, and just to add a little more: For fire control we had the old, WW2-era position keeper, just like the one in SH4. Ours had been modified to interface with the then 'modern' weapons control panel for the Mk48s we carried. The position keeper was in a case about the size of a kitchen refridgerator. One time it broke down and I got to see the innards: a hyper-dense pack of gears, wheels, etc. like a watch on steroids (it was a mechanical computer). We couldn't fix it and had to call for help from Electric Boat. They sent some old geezer who must have learned his trade during the 'big one', I understand he was the only person at EB who know how to repair the thing! In any case, he did us good and we were up and running in less than a day. __________________ My Dangerous Waters website:

11-26-07, 06:21 PM	#8
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I wonder if you had a dotmatrix printer if you could capture the output from the BB sonar screen in SC and print it out real time? __________________

11-27-07, 06:13 AM	#11
FERdeBOER XO Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 431 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 1	And it will be not very ecologic... ... and were you put all those amount of paper since you return to port? :hmm: __________________ Hay dos tipos de buques: los submarinos... y los blancos. There are two types of ships: the subs... and the targets.

11-25-07, 11:43 PM	#2
Sea Demon Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,552 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	I know a guy who used to serve on a Permit Class SSN. He told me that they used rolls of paper or something like that in the 70's when interpreting sonar data. I wasn't quite sure what he meant as he didn't elaborate. But he did say the move to BQQ-5 with digital waterfall displays was a dream come true. I think he said that was sometime in the early 80's.

11-26-07, 01:27 PM	#5
missleman01 Seaman Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 41 Downloads: 79 Uploads: 0	Thanks for the response. Its very helpful. I guess my next line of thinking would be first...what would it take to change the waterfall graphics in Sub Command (if even possible at all) to look like a pen and ink vertical paper printout instead of a green waterfall. I guess second would be to the SCX people. Do all the 60s US and Soviet boats have properly degraded sonar range and frequency capabilities already as SCX stands today?

11-26-07, 07:57 PM	#10
jmr Commander Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 462 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	Wouldn't the dot-matrix printer give your position away? :}

12-01-07, 03:17 PM	#12
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	Read here: Cold War US Sonar Devlopment www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/history/cold-war-asw.html GUPPY Submarines incl Sonar outfits: http://guppysubmarinetribute.homestead.com/Tribute.html __________________

12-02-07, 09:12 PM	#13
missleman01 Seaman Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 41 Downloads: 79 Uploads: 0	Some good reference material. Thanks for it. Now I just need to find what the BQR-2s and 4s look like compared to a BQR-5 interface

12-06-07, 03:57 PM	#14
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	TLAM Brings the goodies for ya: A printer style sonar display from a modern British SSN: Sonar system on Grayback class submarine BQR-2B: Sonar system on GUPPY class submarine BQR-2: Sonar system on USS Albacore AGSS 569: __________________

12-06-07, 05:19 PM	#15
missleman01 Seaman Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 41 Downloads: 79 Uploads: 0	Wow! Thanks TLAM. Thats excellent material...plenty to get gears turning.... Im tempted to go dive into the SC file structure and look around. I dont know how embedded graphics and sub type settings are...but knowing what the sonar systems should look like is inspiring enough to go try. To make a Skipjack iface, youd have to modify image and color components of sonar displays, and mix and match stations... hmmmm