Did Japanese midget submarines sink the Arizona?

[nikimcbee]

Different show about the midget subs:

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

I have looked at this some more and I see some more holes in the theory:

1. there is no record of a midget sub being scooped up in 1944 and dumped outside of the harbour. Now it is possible that the Navy did not recognize what it was and just dumped it with the LST wrecks from the West Loch disaster, but a midget sub is 80 feet long and this one was in only 3 big pieces. It is improbable that someone would not have recognized that it is not a LST;

2. the wreckage lies in a straight line, bow in front followed by midsection followed by stern section, all within 180 meters of each other, exactly as you would expect if it had been scuttled and sank to the bottom. What are the odds it would land like that if the wreckage had been scooped up in West Loch and just dumped in the open ocean?

more details at I-16tou.com

There must be some naval record of them finding that sub, then dumping it out there with the rest of the garbage. In the video, they coudln't explain the extra cable. The Dive expert, Chatterton, thought it looked like a salvage cable.

I'm thinking, if they found it in West Loch and took it out and dumped it, maybe they shoud raise it and examine it? If the center compartment was blown apart, there couldn't be any bodies in there (making it not a grave anymore).
I'm just embarassed to say, I never knew they found the 5th sub. That was a pretty interesting show they had on it.

[gimpy117]

there is debate over the possibility of midget subs making it into the harbor, but not really over them sinking a ship.

[Popeye the Salior]

Nope she took a 800 kilogram bomb hit to her fore magazine the bomb glanced off turret number two then punched through the belt armor and wound up in that magazine where is exploded killing 1,777 Americans.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Popeye the Salior

then punched through the belt armor

That would be the deck armor. If it went through the belt armor it would have exited the hull and exploded in the water.

[Jimbuna]

She was hit by several bombs, one of which penetrated her forecastle and detonated her forward ammunition magazines.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/s...nsh-a/bb39.htm

The Arizona came under attack almost immediately, and at about 8:10 received a hit by a 800-kilogram bomb just forward of turret two on the starboard side. Within a few seconds the forward powder magazines exploded, gutting the forward part of the ship. The foremast and forward superstructure collapsed forward into the void created by the explosion and turrets one and two, deprived of support, dropped more than 20 feet relative to their normal position.

http://www.library.arizona.edu/exhib...y/history.html

[Aktungbby]

Exactly: The Arizona which had been placed "in ordinary" at her berth went to general quarters at O7:55 and was struck by a converted (wooden fin conversion) 16" shell from a level bomber, at 9800 ft., at 08:10. This penetrated the deck adjacent to main forward magazine which it might well have survived, but unfortunately hitting the small 1000 lb ceremonial BLACK POWDER magazine, which acted as the necessary detonator, penetrating the main magazine, and causing the immediate demise of 1172 crewmen-84% of the ships compliment. After Jutland in 1916, the losses of several British capital ships (5) due to careless powder handling had caused a general reformation of practices of most modern navies and powder would not have been lying about. Navy Cool powder bags just do not usually go off without a proper detonator as in the Iowa turret disaster. The small black powder magazine provided such. Ironically, Americas final shot was the bomb at Hiroshima: both halves of the uranium ball were blown together by BLACK POWDER to create the immediate critical mass to explode over the city. Nothing goes entirely out of service.

[Jimbuna]

I now realise what you meant earlier

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

Exactly.

Interesting amount of precise information. Did someone actually dive into the magazine area and determine this, or is it guesswork on somebody's part?

Is there a source?

Also, the propellant for the shells themselves were stored in bags, even in the Iowa class, so the powder in the main magazine was loose enough to explode on its own.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Interesting amount of precise information. Did someone actually dive into the magazine area and determine this, or is it guesswork on somebody's part?

Is there a source?

Also, the propellant for the shells themselves were stored in bags, even in the Iowa class, so the powder in the main magazine was loose enough to explode on its own.

I was aware of the black powder ignition theory from before this thread and it is fairly substantiated that the black powder-also used to launch aircraft from the catapaults-was hit by the bomb. Both Rear Adm. Kidd and CAPT. VAN Valkenburg and the ships damage officer received medals of honor for attempting to fight the ship. The entire ships band, assigned to ammo handling in turret two, were killed at their action station. Look up "USS Arizona-Black powder magazine" and several sites are there.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

Ironically, Americas final shot was the bomb at Hiroshima: both halves of the uranium ball were blown together by BLACK POWDER to create the immediate critical mass to explode over the city. Nothing goes entirely out of service.

For the record;
The Little Boy bomb used Cordite not Black Powder to set off the physics package.

Fat Man (the 2nd and last A-Bomb used in WWII) used Comp B and Baratol to initiate the implosion of the physics package.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I now realise what you meant earlier

Adm. Beatty at Jutland engaging Hipper's Squadron:" There's something wrong with our ships today." Uttered as he witnessed the Arizona style (HMS Hood) explosions of his battle cruisers, later found to be from careless powder handling and lack of flash protections. His bad day at Jutland was only superseded by Scheer's own mishandling of his High Seas Fleet. Adm. Jellico, not hearing from Beatty, essentially his scout element, where the enemy was at, made one of the greatest and intuitive battle decisions of naval warfare, completely in the blind, in turning an entire fleet from column into line ahead to the left and crossing Scheer's T in the classic maneuver. Sheer, forced to retire in darkness, never ventured forth again. WWI, essentially for German world dominance, essentially ended in 1916 that day... the war on land continued futilely in the trenches until 1918. All things at sea are strategic, all things on land are tactical...Mahan supersedes Von Clauscewitz.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

For the record;
The Little Boy bomb used Cordite not Black Powder to set off the physics package.

Fat Man (the 2nd and last A-Bomb used in WWII) used Comp B and Baratol to initiate the implosion of the physics package.

THNX I'll reread that!--- Yup, Cordite, invented 1889 to replace black powder IN ENGLAND!!! What it takes to fire 86 lbs of U235 into a target of 57.3 lbs U235 which achieves critical mass when within 9.8 inches of each enough to prevent a nuclear FIZZLE which was a potential problem with the rifle style Little Boy detonator as opposed to the later implosion method. My particular joy in this discussion is that I'm HAVING the discussion. Having once questioned our use of nukes in WWII, my father (A Brooklyn Boy) and ex-B29 superfortress crewman, turned quietly on me and stated emphatically that he had been slated for the invasion of Japan and, but for bomb, I wouldn't be here!!! My lofty principles out the window, I resumed my schoolboy nuclear alert drills and lived out the Cold War quietly and resumed my history studies with an enlightened and more pragmatic perspective: a Kaleun from Rochester may know MORE than a Kaleun from Brooklyn...occasionally.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

it is fairly substantiated that the black powder-also used to launch aircraft from the catapaults-was hit by the bomb.

Substantiated how?

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Substantiated how?

Unable to ascertain: but from amount of post-sinking dismantlement and hard hat diving, generally, immediately after Dec 7 to rescue or find trapped crews, and later to create the present monument, some immediate assessment must have been definitive as the conclusion is not challenged anywhere, inasmuch as with the bigger, more devastating bang, the distinction is moot... Current dives to check on oil leaks, environmental impacts, and the structural integrity of the monument have also not altered the analysis.