The LWAMI 3.11 Preview Thread - Page 2

XabbaRus · 06-26-10, 03:30 AM

TLAM you are tempting me out of retirement.

You see your subs with double hulls, are you basically joining two cylinders together? Like with the Soryu and a box with the Sang 'O'

Just a thought but something I tried when I was making similar subs that had a turtle deck and joined the main hull I cut away a hole in the main hull and the extruded edges and 'sculpted' the turtle deck. Meant I didn't have any wasted polygons.

They are fine looking models though.

TLAM Strike · 06-26-10, 08:50 PM

I'm assuming you used the "Face Extrude" modifier?

Tried it and it does give the look of a tacked on deck.

But I'm not sure what purpose cutting a hole in the mesh first does.

Maybe I did it a little wrong?

If you every come back from retirement you are more than welcome in the LWAMI team.

EDIT: Finalized Bigfoot 1:

Tried a new style of mapping using only 3ds max, I think it turned out nice.

TLAM Strike · 06-29-10, 01:07 PM

The Mediterranean will no longer be safe... Here is a WIP shot of the Tir II missile boat. Built in Iran to North Korean Specs and sold to Syria. Its armaments includes up to 4 C-802 ASMs and a 7.62mm LMG.

dd149 · 07-01-10, 10:20 AM

Super work again.

TLAM Strike · 07-01-10, 06:22 PM

Finished this one up fast just to clear it from my desktop.
The US 34' Protection Boat

Gorshkov · 07-03-10, 03:20 PM

Show as 3D models of new playable Akula and Seawolf instead of these silly terrorist rafts!

TLAM Strike · 07-03-10, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

Show as 3D models of new playable Akula and Seawolf instead of these silly terrorist rafts!

The last previews of those models can be found in my picture albums.

Although they will be subject to major reworks before they are included in the next release. Mostly a rebuilt of their Sail/Fin.

BTW These "silly terrorist rafts" are far more likely to see combat in the future than a Seawolf or Akula.

Gorshkov · 07-04-10, 04:31 AM

In the LWAMI mod playable units are the same as in stock DW so I am not sure what fun player will have fighting "terrorist rafts" on-board sub or ASW plane. Firing ADCAP torpedo against such raft is not very real and challenging task...

Molon Labe · 07-04-10, 09:08 AM

Maybe so, but smaller warships (FFG), helicopters (MH-60), and ISR assets (P-3) have an important role to play in securing the littorals from low-intensity threats. There is more to DW than submarines.

Gorshkov · 07-04-10, 12:27 PM

Well, DW is mainly sub-sim game in my opinion. However your options are not challenging, either. OHP can engage such rafts with gunfire only. P-3 and MH-60R can do that only using Hellfire. I don't consider firing Harpoons or LWTs against such targets as rationale. Yes, it may be some fun with searching, detecting and classifying those rafts with radar and FLIR but I am not sure this fun will be high enough because rafts are simply defenseless against regular navy even on littoral waters. Look at "Prying Mantis", "Desert Storm" and Gulf of Sidra Incident as proofs. Small coastal vessels are targets for naval air power and are good enough to engage merchants and tankers sailing without escort. Yet against blue water navy much more effective tactics is to use coastal anti-ship missiles possibly on mobile launchers. Falkland's War and INS "Hanit" fate come to mind...

Molon Labe · 07-04-10, 01:31 PM

Littoral warfare is rarely a shoot-fest. Yes, small craft would be outgunned against warships and helicopters, but those craft aren't going to directly engage. They mostly smuggle and network, and when they attack, they attack soft targets. Hellfires and Mavericks aren't always the right tools for the job, and even when they are, it's hard to know where to use them. All things considered, the littoral environment is far more challenging for the US Navy than blue water ops are. (And regarding blue water ops... have you noticed that we've paid a lot of attention to China?)

As for the submarine aspect, we easily have over 90% of the world's combat submarines already modeled.

TLAM Strike · 07-04-10, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

Well, DW is mainly sub-sim game in my opinion. However your options are not challenging, either. OHP can engage such rafts with gunfire only. P-3 and MH-60R can do that only using Hellfire. I don't consider firing Harpoons or LWTs against such targets as rationale. Yes, it may be some fun with searching, detecting and classifying those rafts with radar and FLIR but I am not sure this fun will be high enough because rafts are simply defenseless against regular navy even on littoral waters. Look at "Prying Mantis", "Desert Storm" and Gulf of Sidra Incident as proofs. Small coastal vessels are targets for naval air power and are good enough to engage merchants and tankers sailing without escort. Yet against blue water navy much more effective tactics is to use coastal anti-ship missiles possibly on mobile launchers. Falkland's War and INS "Hanit" fate come to mind...

There are several land based SSM sites in LWAMI 3.10.

We are not focusing our work so much on what is changing but rather on what is being deployed by potential OPFORs.

Iran is deploying large numbers of small boats armed with ASMs, conventional or rocket torpedoes and arty rockets. Coalition and IRGCN forces mix it up routinely in the Northern Gulf with small boats.

Search and destroy/localize missions against these become very interesting when you factor in MANPADs from the armed fishing boats, dhows etc we included in 3.10. Also don't forget coastal SAMs in the Gulf, the SA-5 sites around Bandar Abbas for example.

Gorshkov · 07-04-10, 02:17 PM

Well, I noticed now US Navy rather shifted its focus to blue and green waters than littoral areas as it was trendy during 1990s. Simply new serious naval rival i.e. China is on the horizon. On the other hand operating safely on littoral against strong opponent is too expensive - look at Zumwalt-class 3.5 billion bucks worth freak along with LCS drama. However fighting against Iran-like opponent on littoral is no big problem for current US Navy assets:

- SA-5 is ineffective 45 years old Soviet mammoth good enough for early B-52 models. Look at "El Dorado Canyon" operation which took place 25 years ago what SA-5 is really worth. Also don't assume P-3 would operate alone in area not cleared earlier from SA-5 sites by USAF or US Navy planes. That is possible only in DW universe.

- MANPADS on "terrorist rafts" or some Q-ships are not serious threat to P-3 and attacking MH-60R due to their limited ceiling and range.

- old Iranian Kilos without towed arrays do not have a dog's chance against brand-new US Navy MFTA sonars (by the way not modeled in DW and LWAMI)

- as I mentioned above armed littoral crafts would be most frequently detected and engaged by air platforms in real life. That is something what most playable DW platforms cannot do and thus I think such missions in DW are very narrowed in scope. Maybe you want to simulate some new tanker's war in the Gulf but the only scenario I can imagine is OHP with MH-60R duo's convoy work...after airstrikes against Iranian nuclear sites or establishing Iran's naval blockade.

- that is good your mod has most up to date database but Crazy Ivan vel Gray Owl still reminds your sensors and doctrine files are flawed. I do not know what to think about it...

Gorshkov · 07-06-10, 01:37 PM

A small bug-fix for conventional subs PSL values in LWAMI 3.11 will be needed. I checked all PSL data for this type of subs in DWEdit and I must tell you that they are quire correct. Molo & Co. did good homework here as opposed to SSNs!

However Improved Kilo is slightly overrated having PSL=55 which is not a case against other contemporary submarines. So I changed this value to 56 which seems correct. Besides Chinese Yuan-class sub is also slightly downgraded here - I think as for now her PSL should equal 57 not 58 because this is quite advanced design still under development with Chinese AIP based on Stirling engine probably installed.

All in all Russkie Kilo-class subs never were top-notch as Russian propaganda twaddled long time. First 877 Kilo-class project was noisier than Western diesel subs of 1980s era (Type-209 Mods, Vastergotland, Yushio) and widely marketed 636 Improved Kilo from 1990s is also noisier than Ula and Walrus subs for example. Besides without towed arrays Kilos are now crappy freaks.

Chinese conventional sub's technology is now on par with Russkie Improved Kilo and is still progressing forward! If Russkie Lada-class is really a disaster and Chinese mature much more prospective version of AIP technology they will outrun Russkies also in this area. Well, everything looks like that...

Unfortunately LWAMI's PSL tables (PSL vs speed for playable subs) are completely flawed, I am afraid. Research this area once again LWAMI (now maybe MLTLAMOS) Team.

PS. I couldn't find the following conventional sub classes: Upholder, Zwaardvis, Sjoormen, Soryu, Sondermanland. So Molo & Co. should add them to the game at price of removing some silly outdated and mainly scraped stuff like Romeo, Foxtrot, Oberon etc.

Molon Labe · 07-06-10, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

A small bug-fix for conventional subs PSL values in LWAMI 3.11 will be needed. I checked all PSL data for this type of subs in DWEdit and I must tell you that they are quire correct. Molo & Co. did good homework here as opposed to SSNs!

However Improved Kilo is slightly overrated having PSL=55 which is not a case against other contemporary submarines. So I changed this value to 56 which seems correct. Besides Chinese Yuan-class sub is also slightly downgraded here - I think as for now her PSL should equal 57 not 58 because this is quite advanced design still under development with Chinese AIP based on Stirling engine probably installed.

All in all Russkie Kilo-class subs never were top-notch as Russian propaganda twaddled long time. First 877 Kilo-class project was noisier than Western diesel subs of 1980s era (Type-209 Mods, Vastergotland, Yushio) and widely marketed 636 Improved Kilo from 1990s is also noisier than Ula and Walrus subs for example. Besides without towed arrays Kilos are now crappy freaks.

Chinese conventional sub's technology is now on par with Russkie Improved Kilo and is still progressing forward! If Russkie Lada-class is really a disaster and Chinese mature much more prospective version of AIP technology they will outrun Russkies also in this area. Well, everything looks like that...

PS. I couldn't find the following conventional sub classes: Upholder, Zwaardvis, Sjoormen, Soryu, Sondermanland. So Molo & Co. should add them to the game at price of removing some silly outdated and mainly scraped stuff like Romeo, Foxtrot, Oberon etc.

Wow, more sparring over 1-point differences.

Thanks for the bit of praise in there.
(I'm surprised you didn't notice the Kilo-I being 55 awhile back, it's been there since Amizaur was around)

Anyways, the Sjoorman is in the DB under the name Challenger, and the Soryu is on the way for 3.11. Since the Zwaardvis is essentially a Hai Lung, I can probably use the Hai Lung model and throw that in.

06-26-10, 03:30 AM	#16
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	TLAM you are tempting me out of retirement. You see your subs with double hulls, are you basically joining two cylinders together? Like with the Soryu and a box with the Sang 'O' Just a thought but something I tried when I was making similar subs that had a turtle deck and joined the main hull I cut away a hole in the main hull and the extruded edges and 'sculpted' the turtle deck. Meant I didn't have any wasted polygons. They are fine looking models though. __________________

06-26-10, 08:50 PM	#17
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	I'm assuming you used the "Face Extrude" modifier? Tried it and it does give the look of a tacked on deck. But I'm not sure what purpose cutting a hole in the mesh first does. Maybe I did it a little wrong? If you every come back from retirement you are more than welcome in the LWAMI team. EDIT: Finalized Bigfoot 1: Tried a new style of mapping using only 3ds max, I think it turned out nice. __________________ Last edited by TLAM Strike; 06-26-10 at 09:14 PM.

06-29-10, 01:07 PM	#18
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	The Mediterranean will no longer be safe... Here is a WIP shot of the Tir II missile boat. Built in Iran to North Korean Specs and sold to Syria. Its armaments includes up to 4 C-802 ASMs and a 7.62mm LMG. __________________

07-01-10, 06:22 PM	#20
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	Finished this one up fast just to clear it from my desktop. The US 34' Protection Boat __________________

07-04-10, 09:08 AM	#24
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	Maybe so, but smaller warships (FFG), helicopters (MH-60), and ISR assets (P-3) have an important role to play in securing the littorals from low-intensity threats. There is more to DW than submarines. __________________

07-01-10, 10:20 AM	#19
dd149 Soundman Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Lille, France Posts: 146 Downloads: 183 Uploads: 0	Super work again.

07-03-10, 03:20 PM	#21
Gorshkov Commodore Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 604 Downloads: 139 Uploads: 0	Show as 3D models of new playable Akula and Seawolf instead of these silly terrorist rafts!

07-04-10, 04:31 AM	#23
Gorshkov Commodore Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 604 Downloads: 139 Uploads: 0	In the LWAMI mod playable units are the same as in stock DW so I am not sure what fun player will have fighting "terrorist rafts" on-board sub or ASW plane. Firing ADCAP torpedo against such raft is not very real and challenging task...

07-04-10, 12:27 PM	#25
Gorshkov Commodore Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 604 Downloads: 139 Uploads: 0	Well, DW is mainly sub-sim game in my opinion. However your options are not challenging, either. OHP can engage such rafts with gunfire only. P-3 and MH-60R can do that only using Hellfire. I don't consider firing Harpoons or LWTs against such targets as rationale. Yes, it may be some fun with searching, detecting and classifying those rafts with radar and FLIR but I am not sure this fun will be high enough because rafts are simply defenseless against regular navy even on littoral waters. Look at "Prying Mantis", "Desert Storm" and Gulf of Sidra Incident as proofs. Small coastal vessels are targets for naval air power and are good enough to engage merchants and tankers sailing without escort. Yet against blue water navy much more effective tactics is to use coastal anti-ship missiles possibly on mobile launchers. Falkland's War and INS "Hanit" fate come to mind...

07-04-10, 01:31 PM	#26
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	Littoral warfare is rarely a shoot-fest. Yes, small craft would be outgunned against warships and helicopters, but those craft aren't going to directly engage. They mostly smuggle and network, and when they attack, they attack soft targets. Hellfires and Mavericks aren't always the right tools for the job, and even when they are, it's hard to know where to use them. All things considered, the littoral environment is far more challenging for the US Navy than blue water ops are. (And regarding blue water ops... have you noticed that we've paid a lot of attention to China?) As for the submarine aspect, we easily have over 90% of the world's combat submarines already modeled. __________________

07-04-10, 02:17 PM	#28
Gorshkov Commodore Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 604 Downloads: 139 Uploads: 0	Well, I noticed now US Navy rather shifted its focus to blue and green waters than littoral areas as it was trendy during 1990s. Simply new serious naval rival i.e. China is on the horizon. On the other hand operating safely on littoral against strong opponent is too expensive - look at Zumwalt-class 3.5 billion bucks worth freak along with LCS drama. However fighting against Iran-like opponent on littoral is no big problem for current US Navy assets: - SA-5 is ineffective 45 years old Soviet mammoth good enough for early B-52 models. Look at "El Dorado Canyon" operation which took place 25 years ago what SA-5 is really worth. Also don't assume P-3 would operate alone in area not cleared earlier from SA-5 sites by USAF or US Navy planes. That is possible only in DW universe. - MANPADS on "terrorist rafts" or some Q-ships are not serious threat to P-3 and attacking MH-60R due to their limited ceiling and range. - old Iranian Kilos without towed arrays do not have a dog's chance against brand-new US Navy MFTA sonars (by the way not modeled in DW and LWAMI) - as I mentioned above armed littoral crafts would be most frequently detected and engaged by air platforms in real life. That is something what most playable DW platforms cannot do and thus I think such missions in DW are very narrowed in scope. Maybe you want to simulate some new tanker's war in the Gulf but the only scenario I can imagine is OHP with MH-60R duo's convoy work...after airstrikes against Iranian nuclear sites or establishing Iran's naval blockade. - that is good your mod has most up to date database but Crazy Ivan vel Gray Owl still reminds your sensors and doctrine files are flawed. I do not know what to think about it... Last edited by Gorshkov; 07-04-10 at 02:28 PM.

07-06-10, 01:37 PM	#29
Gorshkov Commodore Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 604 Downloads: 139 Uploads: 0	A small bug-fix for conventional subs PSL values in LWAMI 3.11 will be needed. I checked all PSL data for this type of subs in DWEdit and I must tell you that they are quire correct. Molo & Co. did good homework here as opposed to SSNs! However Improved Kilo is slightly overrated having PSL=55 which is not a case against other contemporary submarines. So I changed this value to 56 which seems correct. Besides Chinese Yuan-class sub is also slightly downgraded here - I think as for now her PSL should equal 57 not 58 because this is quite advanced design still under development with Chinese AIP based on Stirling engine probably installed. All in all Russkie Kilo-class subs never were top-notch as Russian propaganda twaddled long time. First 877 Kilo-class project was noisier than Western diesel subs of 1980s era (Type-209 Mods, Vastergotland, Yushio) and widely marketed 636 Improved Kilo from 1990s is also noisier than Ula and Walrus subs for example. Besides without towed arrays Kilos are now crappy freaks. Chinese conventional sub's technology is now on par with Russkie Improved Kilo and is still progressing forward! If Russkie Lada-class is really a disaster and Chinese mature much more prospective version of AIP technology they will outrun Russkies also in this area. Well, everything looks like that... Unfortunately LWAMI's PSL tables (PSL vs speed for playable subs) are completely flawed, I am afraid. Research this area once again LWAMI (now maybe MLTLAMOS) Team. PS. I couldn't find the following conventional sub classes: Upholder, Zwaardvis, Sjoormen, Soryu, Sondermanland. So Molo & Co. should add them to the game at price of removing some silly outdated and mainly scraped stuff like Romeo, Foxtrot, Oberon etc. Last edited by Gorshkov; 07-06-10 at 02:09 PM.