LWAMI 3.09-3.10 bug advisory and request for help

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by nohouan

To Molon :
Don't worry, I know that my Database is now a mutant, so I won't go MP.
But that didn't solve the problem entirely, other plateforms are messing with the game. Can't tell wich ones, but never mind. It's still playable (sort of), and as Fleet Command did the same kind of CTDs, so I'm used to it.

Bye, guys !

Alright, but if you have any new information on when the crashes are occuring we're definitely interested. I haven't been able to reproduce those crashes on my end so I can't fix them yet. Also, I think you should look into your system specs and see if the crashes are related to that rather than the mod, since you're still getting them with the "appendix-free" database. Or maybe it's both, as in your graphics card doesn't like the new models.

[nohouan]

No problem, I'll do that and tell you what I find.

[nohouan]

Ok. So.
I still haven't found the cause, but I am making some sort of a list, with suppositions & platforms involved, wich is as follow :

-Vishnaya, CTD after multiple commands were issued (Raising, lowering masts, changes in speed & depth, etc). Plateform : Kilo Imp.
-CTD occured after counter-detection by a Victor III, DW original campaign, mission 3. Plateform : 688(i).
-Usually, no CTDing during missions if 3D interface is not accessed.
-Observation of CTD redundancy : Not crashing often when testing plateforms on a clean edited mission, but when a lot of plateforms are present. Guessing : maybe communications between plateforms is the cause (exchanges, behavior modifications, etc). Otherwise, more simply , possible memory buffer allocation for DW insufficient on my comp., but no clue as to how to enhance it.
-Usually, no CTDing during missions if 3D interface is not accessed (it does happen from time to time, but it's very rare).

I know it's not much, but reloading the game sometimes every 2 minutes can be annoying.

[Gorshkov]

Too many CDTs! I am not going into this mod.

[goldorak]

@ nohouan : so many CTD point to a failure other than the mod.
Graphics drivers can be a culprit, also sound drivers are very finicky moreso if you use integrated sound audio. Try updating graphics and audio drivers.

@ Gorshkov : how about installing the mod before spouting nonsense ?

Many people are enjoying Lwami 3.10 and none have these continuos CTD.
What does that tell you ? That the mod is at fault, or most probably that nohouan has some kind of hardware / software incompatibility ?

[Gorshkov]

@goldorak: What about becoming to know what this forum exists for?

@LWAMI Team: Your PSL values are ridiculous:

- American: Seawolf, Virginia: 55, 55
- Russian: Graney, Borey: 55, 56

Sorry but I didn't know such amazing PSL levels can be achieved after rusting 15-20 years in Russian shipyard and not having any technological progress in that time due to economic crisis and fall of Soviet R&D base. Strictly speaking I have to use DWEdit to correct these funny values to 57 and 58 respectively for both "brand-news" Russkie nuclear subs founded on 20 years old Soviet technology. I suppose in real life noise level of both these subs is most probably not much better than old Akulas but I won't waste my time to edit all Russian subs PSL values in the LWAMI 3.10 mod. Well, I also tuned PSLs of Astute to 56, Akula II's to 58 and Victor III Imp to 63 so now nuclear subs noise level seems to be rational enough:

- Russia: Victor III 67, Victor III Imp 63, Akula I 63, Akula I Imp 59, Akula II 58, Borey 58, Granay 57

- US: LA 62, LA Imp 58, Seawolf 55, Virginia 55

- UK: Switfsure 63, Trafalgar 59, Astute 56

And please don't give me an explanations like "game-play balance" and similar BS.


PS. Well, it seems that someone have already changed both values to 56 and 57 respectively as I noticed in DWEdit. That was move in right direction but rather too short one, I am afraid.

[Molon Labe]

Don't you think you're splitting hairs when your preferences are only a point off from where ours are?

The LWAMI values are based on publicly available charts on noise levels. Subs not on those charts are estimated based on the sub type, country, and year, as well as any information noted about those platforms regarding whether they are unexpectedly noisy or quiet for their generation.

[Gorshkov]

I think your pics look well but they are a bit far from reality as for latest Russkie nuclear subs.

After I spent a lot of time researching area of Russia's weapons development programs since 1991 I am sure my estimates are more precise than those present in LWAMI because they only show faulty constant linear estimation of noise reduction level along with time which was not the case. Moreover above values refers only to theoretical Russian subs noise levels - in real terms they are now louder due to bad maintenance and prolonged build-up periods. I think both lead ships of Borey and Graney classes are more noisy than they should. Conventional subs are another story but Russia lost technological race here too. Lada's AIP propulsion turned out to be a complete disaster and moreover all AIP technology based on electric sources is false path as Germans discovered lately. Now only Stirling engine technology is sole proper AIP solution - "Long live to Sweden!"

We shall see how this situation evolves but it is rather certain those days Russia will be able to keep race in the nuclear subs stealth with Chinese only because US Navy is outside their reach. Well, during last 20 years China spent a lot of time and effort copying latest Soviet submarine technology with help of hundreds "imported" Russian naval scientists and now PRC possesses at least Delta IV and latest Victor III technology with rather bright future in sight [095, 096, 097(?) sub types] - Chinese Navy is raising as hell while Russian Navy is declining rapidly.

Anyway test detection radii of Seawolf/Virginia (PSL=55) against Graney/Borey (PSL=57/58) and vice versa.

[Molon Labe]

Until better sources become available, I'll stick with the graphs, thanks. If it's any consolation to you, the Russian subs in general have a steeper sound-speed relationship, so the base PSLs make US and Russian subs more even than they are practically in the simulation.

[Gorshkov]

I am afraid "better sources" about latest nuclear subs are top secret. That is why we have to stick on indirect data and make some realistic estimates basing on many factors. Taking all that into account I think Russian shipbuilding industry is now finished once and for all. Read Russian military press if you speak Russian. Often very interesting data can be found there. Expect no Russian Seawolfs, buddy.

Anyway the basic trend is clear: Russkies go down while Chinese go up. In the near future Russia will become weapon importer, not exporter - exactly opposite as China. Can you believe that? Twenty years ago this county was able to produce almost all kinds of known weapons itself...

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

I am afraid "better sources" about latest nuclear subs are top secret. That is why we have to stick on indirect data and make some realistic estimates basing on many factors. Taking all that into account I think Russian shipbuilding industry is now finished once and for all. Read Russian military press if you speak Russian. Often very interesting data can be found there. No Russian Seawolfs, buddy.

Anyway the basic trend is clear: Russkies go down while Chinese go up. In the near future Russia will become weapon importer, not exporter - exactly opposite as China. Can you believe that? Twenty years ago this county was able to produce almost all kinds of known weapons itself...

if your indirect sources are nothing more than heresay then the better solution is to stick to published public sources. Wether they are american or russian. Otherwise any dude can come up and say, "the cousin of the cousin of my cousin told me that the virginia could go to 42 knots. I swear it". Ok 42 knots max speed it is.
Sticking to published sources is the right thing to do, because except for officers/sailors that work onboard subs (and know its secret characteristics, and performance) for the rest of us, thats 99% the rest of us such data is simply not available.
What are your realistic estimates ? You realise that your realistic estimates are as good or bad as any other realistic estimate ?
And that the only correct values are known only to a few people ?

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

I am afraid "better sources" about latest nuclear subs are top secret. That is why we have to stick on indirect data and make some realistic estimates basing on many factors. Taking all that into account I think Russian shipbuilding industry is now finished once and for all. Read Russian military press if you speak Russian. Often very interesting data can be found there. Expect no Russian Seawolfs, buddy.

Anyway the basic trend is clear: Russkies go down while Chinese go up. In the near future Russia will become weapon importer, not exporter - exactly opposite as China. Can you believe that? Twenty years ago this county was able to produce almost all kinds of known weapons itself...

Of course the best sources are top secret, that's why we have to go by the best data out in public and estimate the rest based on that data!

Regarding the Chinese and Russians, that is an interesting development. The Chinese are still decades behind the Russians in submarine manufacturing, but they'll catch up pretty quickly once they decide to make it a priority. It's amazing to see how quickly they've developed their ASUW capabilities and, more recently, their AAW systems. They do an excellent job reverse engineering Western and Russian designs while adding their own adaptations in the process.

I hadn't really considered whether the Russians would need to start importing, but I think you're right. Shipbuilding at a minimum is in shambles, and any defense industry in general needs consistent spending to keep the factories in shape, which means the whole Russian defense industry is probably equally screwed. That is, unless their export sectors can keep parts of their industry alive, even if the Russian military themselves can't afford the equipment. Flanker exports seem to be doing well, along with several missile designs.

[Gorshkov]

@goldorak: Read again what I wrote and don't be funny again.

@ML: You are wrong thinking Chinese are decades behind Russkies in the submarine technology. They are now pretty close! Chinese have Delta IV and Victor III technology for sure and what is more important they grabbed Russian know-how thanks to hiring many unemployed Soviet naval specialists. What you also should take into consideration is huge Chinese intelligence activity in the all post-Soviet space which resulted in gaining plethora of interesting stuff there. Well, I am not sure if PRC did not also capture Akula and Borey level of technology that way. In sum next generation of Chinese nuclear subs after 093 and 094 types will be on par with latest Russian models. Moreover Chinese established robust military industry while Russian military industrial complex is in ruins. The best proof is now PRC offers domestic Flanker's copy for export so Russian export incomes will drop considerably!

[Gorshkov]

I constantly get CTD in Akula's "S.D. Breakout" mission.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

@goldorak: Read again what I wrote and don't be funny again.

@ML: You are wrong thinking Chinese are decades behind Russkies in the submarine technology. They are now pretty close! Chinese have Delta IV and Victor III technology for sure and what is more important they grabbed Russian know-how thanks to hiring many unemployed Soviet naval specialists.

I said the Chinese are several decades behind, but that they'll catch up quickly thanks in part to reverse-engineering of Russian designs. Now you say they have Delta IV and Victor III technology, and that they have access to Soviet expertise. The Delta IV and Victor III are from the 1980s. It is now 2010. So if they have Delta IV and Victor III technology now, they are 3 decades behind the Russians. And you apparently agree with me that they'll catch up.

So how can you say I'm wrong when you are in complete agreement with me?

Edit: I will disagree with how fast they'll catch up; the reports now are estimating that the 095 SSN will remain behind the Akula I in quieting (see graph above, also cited here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33153.pdf)