U-864 is finally being raised! - Page 6

02-03-09, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

Bewolf, I think we agree more than you know.
I have, here and there, put aside various beliefs of mine in this topic so that I can
better explore others.

Quote:

Honrable my a**, war sucks, period. There is no good and bade side, just bad and worse.

I agree with you wholly here, although it is far from the most common view, especially
when war is discussed practically, rather than in abstract.

Nice to reach a common conclusion then. Now for the fun part

jazzabilly · 02-03-09, 01:58 PM

Thomen:

>>But, tell me.. didn't Canada try wipe it's indigenous population off the earth by destroying their culture and stealing their children?

Apples, oranges and red herrings. Just because I'm Canadian, do not assume that I condone or excuse the actions of past Canadian governments or institutions. We are talking about the crimes of Nazi Germany here, and not only select groups.

The evidence and documentation does not support any previous claim that there was "no knowledge" of the holocaust on the part of any arm of the German armed services, or of the support and logistical services. If anything, quite the opposite. They were complicit.

I also point out that Hitler never concealed his intentions or plans. Justifications were mere window dressing. The entire war was, to him at least, a race war.

It is surprising to me that any reasonable or literate person would go on supporting the position that the 3rd Reich was justified in its actions. Unless that support is based in either ignorance (willful or otherwise) of its crimes, or that person feels that the holocaust was justified.

I have encountered both, in varied forums and message boards. All I expect is that every person who identifies themself or themselves as those who seek to defend or justify the behaviour of the servants of the 3rd Reich to examine and explain why they do.

Enigma · 02-03-09, 02:28 PM

It's worth keeping in mind that I've read more than one account of American sailors having German sailors as captors aboard their US navy boat. In one such case, a German Navy Captain died in captivity. The US Military themselves gave the man a military burial at sea, and allowed the German crew to honor their captain in the process....

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq87-3o.htm

Thomen · 02-03-09, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

Exactly!
Back then it seamed the right and honorable thing to do, now we can see it was not.
Their ignorance goes some way to excuse their actions, but we can not use it to
justify our actions.

I am not saying you are wrong, Letum. And I do agree to a certain degree with you. All I am saying is: Why put them all in the same box and make no distinction between 'Monster' and 'Hero', so to say?
There were many many soldiers who fought brave and honorable on either side, did not commit any crimes or cruelties. Why not use those as an example that even when the **** hits the fan, there are still people out there that are (or rather were) decent human beings?
The Nazi's where bad guys? No doubt about that. Hitler a loony? Hell yea. Unfortunately all attempts on his life (I think it were 42 attempts) failed. And mind you many of those came from within the military (for many different reasons, admittedly) or from the German resistance, who got no support whatsoever from the Allies and subsequently were doomed to fail.

I prefer to look at things from a rather 'detached' point of view and try to see things in perspective and look at the alternatives and not to judge everyone as being in the same box.

One, in my opinion, important thing the 'everybody is in the boat and therefore guilty as charged' does, it totally ignores soldiers that actively supported the German Resistance or even those who joined the French Resistance while on active duty. There were many acts of kindness and active or passive resistance from regular Joe Grunts. And I am not willing to negate those by just saying: Bah.. they were all Nazi's or in the Wehrmacht, therefore off with their heads.

Thomen · 02-03-09, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigma

It's worth keeping in mind that I've read more than one account of American sailors having German sailors as captors aboard their US navy boat. In one such case, a German Navy Captain died in captivity. The US Military themselves gave the man a military burial at sea, and allowed the German crew to honor their captain in the process....

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq87-3o.htm

There were quite a few cases like that, I believe. One is got buried with military honors in Virginia.

Letum · 02-03-09, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomen

I am not saying you are wrong, Letum. And I do agree to a certain degree with you. All I am saying is: Why put them all in the same box and make no distinction between 'Monster' and 'Hero', so to say?

My argument does not require the presence of 'monsters' at all.
Even if every single German fought according to all the rules of war and rescued kittens
etc. my argument would still be the same.

This is because I am not saying that all Germans where good/bad/any other value.

I am saying that taking part in warfare is only ever honorable if the war can be
considered just and the method of warfare can be considered just. The former being
the most relevant here.

Those who fight in unjust wars or in unjust ways should never be honored.

Most of the time they should not be blamed either for the reasons you put froward
They should be respected, remembered and mourned as humans who dies tragically
and in vain.

02-03-09, 01:58 PM	#77
jazzabilly Planesman Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Vancouver BC Posts: 186 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	Thomen: >>But, tell me.. didn't Canada try wipe it's indigenous population off the earth by destroying their culture and stealing their children? Apples, oranges and red herrings. Just because I'm Canadian, do not assume that I condone or excuse the actions of past Canadian governments or institutions. We are talking about the crimes of Nazi Germany here, and not only select groups. The evidence and documentation does not support any previous claim that there was "no knowledge" of the holocaust on the part of any arm of the German armed services, or of the support and logistical services. If anything, quite the opposite. They were complicit. I also point out that Hitler never concealed his intentions or plans. Justifications were mere window dressing. The entire war was, to him at least, a race war. It is surprising to me that any reasonable or literate person would go on supporting the position that the 3rd Reich was justified in its actions. Unless that support is based in either ignorance (willful or otherwise) of its crimes, or that person feels that the holocaust was justified. I have encountered both, in varied forums and message boards. All I expect is that every person who identifies themself or themselves as those who seek to defend or justify the behaviour of the servants of the 3rd Reich to examine and explain why they do. __________________ If it's a fair fight, then you didn't plan it properly. ====================================

02-03-09, 02:28 PM	#78
Enigma The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: At comms depth, obviously. Posts: 1,476 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	It's worth keeping in mind that I've read more than one account of American sailors having German sailors as captors aboard their US navy boat. In one such case, a German Navy Captain died in captivity. The US Military themselves gave the man a military burial at sea, and allowed the German crew to honor their captain in the process.... http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq87-3o.htm __________________ "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain