U-864 is finally being raised! - Page 4

Dowly · 01-31-09, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomen

Quote:

Tell me what they did in their role as soldiers that deserves the slightest bit of honor.

Don't tell me they had nothing to do with the political Nazi party! The German military
was the only reason the Nazi party was still in power.

As humans that died tragically through no fault of their own, the deserve statues, but
as soldiers they deserve nothing what so ever.

There certainly should be a monument to them, but one that is is memory and morning
for them, not one to give glorification of their military endeavor. That would sicken me.

That kinda brings up the question why honor any military men or women that died for their country. Or are you saying 'Bomber' Harris is any more honourable than the U-Boat crew? And Harris certainly has more blood on his hands than they do...

As long as they did not commit war crimes, I don't see what should speak against a burial and remembrance with Military honors.
Even your Countrymen, assuming you are indeed Britsh, and the Americans showed respect for their adversaries and gave burials with military honors to fallen Germans.

Excellent post!

I think this pic sums the respect you just talked about quite well. Title for the pic says: This dead German soldier was one of the "last stand" defenders of German-held Cherbourg. Captain Earl Topley, who led one of the first outfits into the fallen city, blamed him for killing three of his boys. France, 06/27/1944 (WARNING, CRUESOME SHOT):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Cherbourg.jpg

HunterICX · 01-31-09, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomen

That kinda brings up the question why honor any military men or women that died for their country. Or are you saying 'Bomber' Harris is any more honourable than the U-Boat crew? And Harris certainly has more blood on his hands than they do...

Harris's been bathing in Blood
Allied bombing of German cities claimed between 300,000 and 600,000 civilian lives.

the battle of the atlantic claimed aprox 30,200 merchant sailors

so knowing that wouldnt it be fair to degrade the graves of the bomber crew shot down to human states and take away any Honorable military resemblece as they didnt deserve them, they just killed civilians for their butcher Harris
I've seen graves of a whole family wiped out in one raid, the youngest one was just 3 months old did they asked to be bombed to kingdom come?
Harris tought so, he thought killing enough civilians would get the country on its knees...bastard hasnt learned anything from the raids on london...it only fuels the people to hold on even harder.

I respect almost all of the soldiers/airmen/sailors on both sides of World War II (apart from the few rotten ones) They followed the orders and did the hard work and gave their lifes in the line of duty. and they deserve to be honored in Military fashion.

HunterICX

01-31-09, 05:01 AM

Link with Youtube - video.

http://www.xray-mag.com/en/content/n...rman-ww2-uboat

Regardless of what one thinks about nazis etc. it would be interesting to have some wrecks raised to the surface. Some of the merchant ships had cargo that would be of some value still, not to mention the historical value of tanks etc.

Letum · 01-31-09, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomen

That kinda brings up the question why honor any military men or women that died for their country. Or are you saying 'Bomber' Harris is any more honourable than the U-Boat crew? And Harris certainly has more blood on his hands than they do...

My criteria is that a person deserves military honors if they fought for a just cause and
did so in a just way.

Bomber Harris fits the bill here for many people, but not for me personally.

01-31-09, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomen

That kinda brings up the question why honor any military men or women that died for their country. Or are you saying 'Bomber' Harris is any more honourable than the U-Boat crew? And Harris certainly has more blood on his hands than they do...

My criteria is that a person deserves military honors if they fought for a just cause and
did so in a just way.

Bomber Harris fits the bill here for many people, but not for me personally.

Curious, and there I thought just wars were only fought by those who came out on top.

SteamWake · 01-31-09, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

Tell me what they did in their role as soldiers that deserves the slightest bit of honor.

They did their duty and followed orders... to the end.

What those orders are and whom they came from are actually irrelevant.

Letum · 01-31-09, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Curious, and there I thought just wars were only fought by those who came out on top.

History says otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

Tell me what they did in their role as soldiers that deserves the slightest bit of honor.

They did their duty and followed orders... to the end.

What those orders are and whom they came from are actually irrelevant.

What the order are are not irrelevant. Everyone takes responsibility for his/her actions
you can't pass responsibility up the chain of command.

gandalf71 · 01-31-09, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

My criteria is that a person deserves military honors if they fought for a just cause and
did so in a just way.

Bomber Harris fits the bill here for many people, but not for me personally.

Is that why people like Colin Campbell are honoured in the UK?

Sorry but for me there is no difference between any soldier, who gave his life for his country, at least thinking that he was fighting for a right cause.

br
Michael

Hitman · 01-31-09, 11:19 AM

Quote:

My criteria is that a person deserves military honors if they fought for a just cause and
did so in a just way.

Quote:

What the order are are not irrelevant. Everyone takes responsibility for his/her actions
you can't pass responsibility up the chain of command.

Oh that's great. Now prepare to open up Westminster Abbey and drag out most of those entombed there, as they took part in imperialist wars of aggression against many Indian, African, and American states of their time.

Things are not so easy, Letum, you should know better

Letum · 01-31-09, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitman

Quote:

My criteria is that a person deserves military honors if they fought for a just cause and
did so in a just way.

Quote:

What the order are are not irrelevant. Everyone takes responsibility for his/her actions
you can't pass responsibility up the chain of command.

Oh that's great. Now prepare to open up Westminster Abbey and drag out most of those entombed there[...]

I'm not saying those who did such things should be dug up, condemned or anything like
that. They just should not have a celebration of what they did. They should not be
honored or glorified, but remembered and mourned as humans who died tragically.

01-31-09, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitman

Quote:

My criteria is that a person deserves military honors if they fought for a just cause and
did so in a just way.

Quote:

What the order are are not irrelevant. Everyone takes responsibility for his/her actions
you can't pass responsibility up the chain of command.

Oh that's great. Now prepare to open up Westminster Abbey and drag out most of those entombed there[...]

I'm not saying those who did such things should be dug up, condemned or anything like
that. They just should not have a celebration of what they did. They should not be
honored or glorified, but remembered and mourned as humans who died tragically.

Letum, I agree to your stance towards soldiers in general, but then you have to apply these rules to all nations, not just the germans. Most wars called "just" by the population were not that "just" anymore on the political level. No country goes to war just for friendships or morales sake, but only if important interests are threatend. Britain especially followed a "balance on the continent" policy for centuries, getting involved in wars that did have nothing to do with them.

I personally have zero problems with your principles, even though I tend to disagree, out of humanitarian reasons, however, but a huge problem with the hypocrisis displayed in regards to judging soldiers just because they fought for one side and not the other.

Letum · 01-31-09, 01:56 PM

I do apply it to all nations, although it is not often black and white, in this case it is
clear enough to anyone. I could certainly dig up countless British military endeavors
that conferred no honor to it's participants.

snakeyez · 01-31-09, 02:56 PM

From the Norway Post:

http://www.norwaypost.no/content/view/21562/26/

01-31-09, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

I do apply it to all nations, although it is not often black and white, in this case it is
clear enough to anyone. I could certainly dig up countless British military endeavors
that conferred no honor to it's participants.

Clear enough only if you look at the surface. As usual, things are a bit more complicated and general arguments don't do the individual justice.

Letum · 01-31-09, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

I do apply it to all nations, although it is not often black and white, in this case it is
clear enough to anyone. I could certainly dig up countless British military endeavors
that conferred no honor to it's participants.

Clear enough only if you look at the surface. As usual, things are a bit more complicated and general arguments don't do the individual justice.

That is true enough.
Few things do the individual justice.

01-31-09, 01:56 PM	#57
Letum Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: York - UK Posts: 6,079 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	I do apply it to all nations, although it is not often black and white, in this case it is clear enough to anyone. I could certainly dig up countless British military endeavors that conferred no honor to it's participants. __________________

01-31-09, 02:56 PM	#58
snakeyez Last Man Down Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 242 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	From the Norway Post: http://www.norwaypost.no/content/view/21562/26/ __________________ SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG - These are the submarines in your neighborhood! Get involved, they need you. Doyle Blalock - the life of my WWII submarine veteran grandfather. Drum228.org - devoted to the Gato-class museum sub USS Drum (SS-228) complete with war patrol reports, historical info, and restoration progress.

01-31-09, 05:01 AM	#48
OneToughHerring Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Link with Youtube - video. http://www.xray-mag.com/en/content/n...rman-ww2-uboat Regardless of what one thinks about nazis etc. it would be interesting to have some wrecks raised to the surface. Some of the merchant ships had cargo that would be of some value still, not to mention the historical value of tanks etc.