I come to realize

[ktrboston]

I have come to realize after couple of tries, I really suck at manual targeting with the U-boot. I have no problems with the U.S. Sub but everytime I am in a U-boot I am firing and they miss and I am at close range between 1500 yards and 1000 yards. They seem to there too late. I know how to get AOB and range and get all the data for a good soultion but alas they seem to miss and I have a good gyroangle, AOB(90) and have the speed. I fire at the appropiate time between 345 and 010. Very Frustrating! I keep a excel patrol log of what I come accross and what I fire and out 14 torpedos that I fired at 3 ships only 4 hit. Very disappointing! And yes the tube doors are open. I seem to do better with the US subs then I do with the German ones.

[Quillan]

Well, if you're missing astern and the tube doors are already open, then I see either one of two things happening:

1) Your data is faulty, and I suspect your speed estimate to be a little too low, or
2) The target is speeding up because they spotted the torpedo or its wake.

How are you determining the target speed? I would not trust the in-game calculation.

[ktrboston]

Originally Posted by Quillan

Well, if you're missing astern and the tube doors are already open, then I see either one of two things happening:

1) Your data is faulty, and I suspect your speed estimate to be a little too low, or
2) The target is speeding up because they spotted the torpedo or its wake.

How are you determining the target speed? I would not trust the in-game calculation.

I do use the nomograph to do estimate and then use the in-game calculations. I will try not to use the in-game and do the only thing that I can do is try, try, try again. Thanks!

[Quillan]

Assuming you have the time, I wouldn't even use the nomograph. There's an easier and more accurate way. Start your stopwatch, and put a mark on the target's position where you start the watch (can be done while paused for accuracy). If you're using Imperial measurements let it run for 3 minutes, or 3 minutes 15 seconds if you're using Metric measurements, then put another mark on the target position. Measure the distance covered by the target. Every hundred yards or meters is 1 knot of speed.

[ktrboston]

I will try that method. Thanks Quillan!

[Rockin Robbins]

It just seems appropriate, and unlike the Europeans, we can use metric and imperial equally well. I can tell you now that there is no bug in the targeting system. The targets also do not seem to accellerate when they see a steam torpedo coming their way as GWX targets will do, especially during the daytime.

Today I have a Tennessee BB and a T3 Tanker bagged, along with three smaller prey. Make sure you get in to about 500 yards if you're missing. That will make any errors less significant. Make sure you use your attack map to check your setup. You'd be surprised how often that saves my hind end.

Take it slow and try to figure out what you're doing wrong. I'm really curious what it could be! Hope you can turn it around quickly.

[ktrboston]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

It just seems appropriate, and unlike the Europeans, we can use metric and imperial equally well. I can tell you now that there is no bug in the targeting system. The targets also do not seem to accellerate when they see a steam torpedo coming their way as GWX targets will do, especially during the daytime.

Today I have a Tennessee BB and a T3 Tanker bagged, along with three smaller prey. Make sure you get in to about 500 yards if you're missing. That will make any errors less significant. Make sure you use your attack map to check your setup. You'd be surprised how often that saves my hind end.

Take it slow and try to figure out what you're doing wrong. I'm really curious what it could be! Hope you can turn it around quickly.

Hi Rockin Robbins, from what I noticed they are being fired to late on occasions and other times they are being fired to soon. I think what I am doing wrong is once I take the range, I do it again before I take a shot. What I am unsure on is how many times should you take range before you fire and what range should you stop. I am second guess my self so used to postion keeper. No I am not using metric and I know there is no bug unless the captain has can't shoot straight bug. :rotfl: The one thing that I miss that a modder has done for SH3 and SH4 is the bearing tool around the sub to me it helps.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by ktrboston

I have come to realize after couple of tries, I really suck at manual targeting with the U-boot. I have no problems with the U.S. Sub but everytime I am in a U-boot I am firing and they miss and I am at close range between 1500 yards and 1000 yards. They seem to there too late. I know how to get AOB and range and get all the data for a good soultion but alas they seem to miss and I have a good gyroangle, AOB(90) and have the speed. I fire at the appropiate time between 345 and 010. Very Frustrating! I keep a excel patrol log of what I come accross and what I fire and out 14 torpedos that I fired at 3 ships only 4 hit. Very disappointing! And yes the tube doors are open. I seem to do better with the US subs then I do with the German ones.

I do better with the US TDC too. I think the primary differences is in the stadimeter and the position keeper. The Stadimeter, i think is much more forgiving then the german counterpart.

[Fortune]

The main difference is the position keeper and that the target angle is not actualized.
In an U-Boat I always get new target data just a few seconds before I fire the torpedo. Because of the missing position keeper the distance is always the same since the last time you are refreshing target data. If everything is correct the PC has the target position even after several minutes(calculating you own speed, too!). The german TDC isn't capable of doing this. Your angle to target/AoB and target speed is calculated. Your own speed and distance NOT. So it's a really good idea to "refresh" all data except target speed a short moment before you shoot. Otherwise you'll fire the torpedo with old/incorrect data!

[Ducimus]

The PK does make things really easy in manual targeting due to its target tracking capabilities. Assuming your initial observations are correct, and the target doesnt change speed or course, you could fire blind and have still hit your target.

Manual targeting, using only the sonar, and the TDC with PK, and hitting something in a pea soup of a fog, is really satisfying.

[Rockin Robbins]

The PK makes data collection a really leisurely deal in a fleet boat. you can collect it in the wrong order or too slowly, doesn't matter as long as the PK is on because it continues to follow the target. In the U-Boat, if you're entering the four parameters for a shot you have to be right snappy about it or you'll miss. I have attempted the German stadimeter, and I hate it as much as the American one.

In the German boat I've shot one torpedo that way. Then to convince myself that maybe I could aim a torpedo I fell back to doing Dick O'Kanes, then remembered an old conversation with aaronblood where he explained the Fast-90, a creation of Wazoo a couple of years back in SH3. I've been doing Fast-90s every since with great success. Why great success? Because I can set up the attack slowly and carefully fifteen or twenty minutes before I shoot. Then all I have to do is drive the boat to the right position (not always easy with these slow U-Boats) and push the buttons. The only thing you can screw up is forgetting to open the torpedo tube door.

OH! The other advantage: you can forget you brought the stadimeter. Use it to amuse any kids you brought along. Am I ready to explain this thing? No. I don't have any screenshots, but I'll do it anyway and fix it later.

Fast-90 U-Boat Targeting

1. Your goal is to shoot from a course 90º from the target track, from a range of 1000 yards or meters or less. For a medium (9 knot) target, we'll be shooting 10º before they reach the zero bearing with steam torpedoes on fast. For electrics we'll shoot 20º before they reach the zero bearing straight in front of us. This will allow the torpedoes to hit pretty squarely and close to a 90º angle. Also, the closer to a 90º strike angle you get, the more error forgiving the process is. I need to insert cool illustration right here. Oh well.

2. The reason we're doing this is that when you are approaching the target at 90º from his course, the range doesn't even need to be considered. Even the distance from the track is only important to make the shot more accurate. If you're shooting at a nice juicy BB or T3 Tanker, 2000 yards off the track is a very easily hittable shot. Shoot two, hit two and watch 'em sink.

3. Targets can be coming from the left or right. Let's use one coming from the left, because that is slightly more difficult because you have to subtract. (Higher math! Run!!!!!!!!!) OK our target is coming left to right. We're shooting a high speed steam torpedo so we're going to shoot 10º before he gets to zero bearing straight in front of us. So go to the attack screen (F6 for those of us with the Trigger Maru superior keyboard layout, fish it out of the menu bars otherwise) This is where the German TDC is kept. You'll see 4 dials along the bottom of the screen and a button to the right of them. This button does two things: it turns manual TDC input on and off. When manual input is on the lights for the dials turn on. Let's set up the TDC for an attack we'll be doing in about a half hour. (You like this already!)

Turn manual input on. Hit F3 and point your scope at the zero bearing, then return to the attack screen. That first dial on the left side is your shoot bearing, also the periscope bearing when the TDC and periscope are linked later. Unlike the American TDC where bearings are 0 to 359, the German system uses bearing right and bearing left (Bug Links und Bug Rechts). Set that puppy for zero, straight ahead.

Second dial from the left is range in hundreds of meters (or yards). 10 means 1000 meters or 1 km. Set this one to an estimate of the range you'll be shooting from the track. You can double it if you're not sure. This range has nothing to do with the accuracy of your shot. It just puts a torpedo track on the attack map so you can see if your shot makes sense. Don't fret over getting anything perfect here! I told you this was cool!

Third dial from the left is angle on the bow. This guy is always going to be set at 90º. All we have to do is figure out whether it should be right or left. Think of this as "what side of the target am I looking at." Our guy is coming left to right, so we're looking at his starboard (right or recht side). Now if you're a boater, you know green is starboard and red is port (port wine is red), but if you're not, just look over at the bearing dial which says "bug recht" on the green side. This is just like the old multiple guess test in school. Half the answers are in the other questions. Set this needle to 90º right. (If he were coming from the right, we'd set it to 90º left. But he's not so we're not.) Done! This is too easy. Are you sure we can DO THIS????

Fourth dial is speed. Do Quillian's three minute distance thing for imperial. Use three minutes, 15 seconds for metric because a meter is 3.37 inches longer than a yard. Now measure the distance between the points in the unit of your choice. The speed is the number of hundreds of units you find. 700 meters/yards equals seven knots. Point the needle at the speed.

On the right side of your attack screen in a vertical configuration are the torpedo parameters. They're all labeled. If you're using steam torpedoes, make sure you use the fast setting. Set pistol to magnetic. This will detonate on contact also. Depth should be just about the draft of the target.

If you identify the target with the target manual you can find the draft. If not, a depth of 7 meters will blow up just about anything. I like to get under the keel of large targets because the German torpedoes are no more powerful than American ones and don't exactly impress me. I want all the destructive power I can bring to bear. That means an explosion as far below the water as I can arrange.

Ignore spread angle, we don't waste torpedoes!

Press that red button and the lights to the TDC input dials go off. Your periscope is still pointed at zero and the bearing dial is at zero. We're synchronized. Lets kill something!!!!!

Plot the course of the targets. Then figure a course 90º from that where you will be pointed right at the track at a right angle. We want to get to 1000 yards/meters from the track, slow down to 1 knot and wait for our targets to get to that 10º (or so) before the zero bearing. We'll never lock the target at all. In the U-Boat, the torpedoes will go exactly where we point the scope! (As long as we have linked the scope to the TDC by turning manual input off. The test is "are the dial lights off?" Yes means we're ready) Our scope is continuously updating our TDC with new bearing and AoB, so we can shoot any time we want! I'd shoot sometime between 20º before zero and zero, but it's pretty accurate outside of that too!

Lets do it the way we DIDN'T plan. We're too impatient. The target is only at 345º, 15º left bearing and we have to go to the bathroom. I gotta shoot now! Piece of cake. Open two doors. Point the scope at that front crane, about 1/4 of the way back from the bow. Shoot. Point about 1/4 of the way forward of the stern. Select the second tube and shoot. Go to the bathroom, you've got two hits on order!

So no spreads, no misses, no hurry, no panic, no fuss, no muss. Fast-90. Coolers!!!!!!!

[ktrboston]

Thanks Rockin Robbins, I will try the Fast 90 method. I know of Wazoo webpage that has this and other interesting stuff and will keep that in mind. I was going to share some girl scout cookies with ya but two of my sonar men Wolfgang Amsel and Ludwig Amsel(they are brothers) got into my secret stash and ate them up last night. Those two are aways up to something.

[wetwarev7]

I've allways liked this method, but I've never understood why the range doesn't make much difference.

Good tutorial!

[Rockin Robbins]

I'm nursing bruises where another poster said that my very similar Dick O'Kane tutorial left his brain numb. I may still add illustrations before I find a place in a stickied thread for it.

Also note that this is Wazoo's method with my explanation. I am not trying to take credit for the name or the method of the Fast-90 attack.

[klh]

Originally Posted by wetwarev7

I've allways liked this method, but I've never understood why the range doesn't make much difference.

Good tutorial!

When you're on a perpendicular attack course, you have formed a right triangle (from you to the target, from you to the intercept point on the target track, and from the target to the intercept point). The distances the target and the torpedo travel to the intercept point (where your torpedo goes boom) is related to their speeds. The ratio of the two (target speed / torpedo speed) is equal to the tangent of the lead angle (the bearing to the target at the time you fire). It is not necessary to know the range to the target, except to make sure your torpedo can travel that far).

It's just trigonometry!

See the Angriffsscheibe Handbuch, example # 16 for a more detailed explanation with pictures.