Can you beat the '68 Campaign in anything but a Skipjack?

[caine007]

I just can't see how you can complete a lot of the missions in the slower subs.

The Sturgeon is quiet and great for ambushes but 25 knots is just not fast enough to clean up every one of your targets for a lot of the missions and once you're spotted they always seem to scatter. I always end up chasing some Victor who just toys with me.

Do you get any kind of partial credit for missions? I feel like HQ is pissed at me even if I sink 5 targets but can't catch the sixth.

[Steiger]

Adjust your tactics. Use your stealth to get in close and pick your targets with extreme prejudice. The toughest missions are the landing missions because of so many targets.

Not every mission in Cold Waters is winnable, it's part of the design.

[Shadow]

If you stick to the mission targets, you should be fine. When there's more than one, you don't always need to sink them all to accomplish your mission. For example, you only need to sink 50% of the transports when tackling an invasion force.

A tangential problem I see is that medals seem much harder to earn in the 1968 campaign, if they're tied to tonnage sunk in a single patrol. Your effective destructive power is nowhere near what you have aboard a Los Angeles in 1984. To illustrate my case, in about 7 successful missions in '84 driving an LA I was able to earn the Bronze Star, Silver Star and Navy Cross. In '68 driving a Skipjack, I earned nothing in 5 successful missions (and then I was sunk ).

Some tweaking might be in order. Here's the contents of awards.txt:

 

[Medals and Awards]

Navy=United States
PatrolAwards=event_award_bronze_star,event_award_silver_star,event_award_navy_cross,event_award_medal_of_honor
PatrolTonnage=25000,50000,100000,200000

CumulativeAwards=event_award_navy_com,event_award_navy_dsm,event_award_legion_of_merit
CumulativeTonnage=50000,100000,250000
MissionsPassed=3,6,10

WoundedAwards=event_award_purple_heart
ProbabilityWounded=0.15,0.001

While attainable in 1984, the patrol awards in particular seem outlandish in 1968. Perhaps campaigns should have some sort of multiplier value to adjust the requirements to the scenario.

[MBot]

I just completed the 1968 campaign in a Permit without using saves (except to leave the game). Unfortunately I could not find the Yankee in the last mission, so the Soviet Union continues to exist.

[ChaosphereIX]

I have finished a '68 campaign on Elite with the following subs:

Skipjack [hardest]
Charlie I
Victor I
Yankee

Edit: Just finished in the Yankee Sidecar with 750k+ tons sunk. That thing destroys fleets.

It certainly is the harder of the two campaigns, but the lack of CWIS and better sensors you can use to your advantage. ie. missile strikes actually work well against fleets in a Charlie. Whole fleets have gone down in one salvo...with no return fire. Not like in '84 that is for sure!

[ollie1983]

You don't need to win every mission to complete the campaign. I had at least 2 cock ups.

[caine007]

Hmm I think I just got really unlucky my first couple of tries. Kept running into large convoys and modern 30kt Soviet boats.

Playing a Permit now and so far only failed one mission because I had to repair. Mk 37's still suck but they kill diesels and LCT's ok. Even got a few Mk 16 hits.

[caine007]

Finally finished it in the Permit. That's a nice boat. Completed every mission I actually made it to in time except the last one. (that Yankee is impossible to find)

I do think doing it in a Narwhal or Sturgeon would be seriously difficult. You can't catch Novembers or Sverdlovs and the extra stealth doesn't seem that useful without the insane sonar and towed array of the 688.

[Shadow]

Hmm. It seems torpedo wrangling isn't all that effective against newer Soviet subs.

In my current '68 campaign, it had worked against older diesels but my last mission was against an SSG wolfpack. Turned out to be a Juliet and, much to my surprise, a Victor I instead of the expected diesel escort. Very silent, and I couldn't detect it so I kept baiting it with active sonar to betray its general location.

Three torpedoes were sent my way, in total. The first one far enough it could be easily dodged. As soon as it was fired, I turned to face its general direction (only had the transient to work with) and my Skipjack steamed ahead at 20 knots. A second torpedo came in, and it was hot on my tail by the time the Victor emerged into view (couldn't fathom playing without reduced underwater visibility). I swirled around it, trying to return the warhead to the owner, but with the Soviet being dead in the water and my boat on flank, the torp just wouldn't pick it up.

The third torp came out, and things started getting hectic. I was an idiot for not being more traditional, try to get a window and fire off a torpedo of my own, but I was rather befuddled the enemy fishes remained zealously loyal to the Soviet Union. In the end one bit into my rudder and that was that. Luckily I was within escape depth, but in retrospective I could've handled it better.

[caine007]

Originally Posted by Shadow

Hmm. It seems torpedo wrangling isn't all that effective against newer Soviet subs.

In my current '68 campaign, it had worked against older diesels but my last mission was against an SSG wolfpack. Turned out to be a Juliet and, much to my surprise, a Victor I instead of the expected diesel escort. Very silent, and I couldn't detect it so I kept baiting it with active sonar to betray its general location.

Three torpedoes were sent my way, in total. The first one far enough it could be easily dodged. As soon as it was fired, I turned to face its general direction (only had the transient to work with) and my Skipjack steamed ahead at 20 knots. A second torpedo came in, and it was hot on my tail by the time the Victor emerged into view (couldn't fathom playing without reduced underwater visibility). I swirled around it, trying to return the warhead to the owner, but with the Soviet being dead in the water and my boat on flank, the torp just wouldn't pick it up.

The third torp came out, and things started getting hectic. I was an idiot for not being more traditional, try to get a window and fire off a torpedo of my own, but I was rather befuddled the enemy fishes remained zealously loyal to the Soviet Union. In the end one bit into my rudder and that was that. Luckily I was within escape depth, but in retrospective I could've handled it better.

The Victors are lethal in '68. Somehow in my Permit game I didn't see a single one. They're very close to being immune to Mk 37's and if you're in a 25 knot boat and they know where you are, just scare them off and try and leave the area, you won't catch them.

[ChaosphereIX]

just finished another '68 campaign with HMS Conqueror. Super fun you guys should try the UK subs in the mod. Just give up on the Mk8 torps, and go with all Tigerfish and be patient.

Trafalgar in 84 was fun as well.

Next: Upholder campaign to appease my inner Canadian, then Astute, Rubis, and Swiftsure.

[caine007]

Originally Posted by ChaosphereIX

just finished another '68 campaign with HMS Conqueror. Super fun you guys should try the UK subs in the mod. Just give up on the Mk8 torps, and go with all Tigerfish and be patient.

Trafalgar in 84 was fun as well.

Next: Upholder campaign to appease my inner Canadian, then Astute, Rubis, and Swiftsure.

Nice. Any plans for some Oberons for us down under types?

[Shadow]

Rather frustrated with this campaign at the moment. Been driving Skipjacks exclusively: I don't know about the other subs' sonar, but the Skipjack's is pretty poor for US standards, and sub-to-sub engagements are a crapshoot which often have me resort to arguably gamey tactics just to have the enemy give away its position. I tend to tempt them with active sonar, knowing they'll fire at me, and then I can usually evade the torpedo (instant kill if it hits) and home in on the launch location.

But it's boring most of the time. I do torpedo wrangling and can sometimes return fishes to their owners, which can be more effective than relying on my absolutely terrible armament. It leads me to believe a Cold War gone hot in the late 1960s would've been a decisive Soviet win at sea at least. The Mk 16 is a nigh-useless relic against anything with a sonar and some maneuverability unless spent in unsustainable volumes, and the Mk 37's eye-watering sluggishness makes me wonder just how on Earth someone approved it becoming the US Navy's mainstay torpedo. And then there's the bug which allows enemy vessels to detect passive torpedoes in their baffles, which only further degrades the 37's already poor performance.

In the end, it feels like I have to cheese the subs to beat them, and warships feel unassailable 80% of the time. Surface-wise, the best I can do is focus on objectives, which are usually merchants, and most medals seem exceedingly out of reach considering the thresholds are the same whether you're puttering about with a Permit in '68 or annihilating everything in your sight on a Los Angeles in '84.

Sorry about the rant. Had to get it off my chest. I really like Cold Waters, but criticism is due where it's due.

[caine007]

Originally Posted by Shadow

Rather frustrated with this campaign at the moment. Been driving Skipjacks exclusively: I don't know about the other subs' sonar, but the Skipjack's is pretty poor for US standards, and sub-to-sub engagements are a crapshoot which often have me resort to arguably gamey tactics just to have the enemy give away its position. I tend to tempt them with active sonar, knowing they'll fire at me, and then I can usually evade the torpedo (instant kill if it hits) and home in on the launch location.

But it's boring most of the time. I do torpedo wrangling and can sometimes return fishes to their owners, which can be more effective than relying on my absolutely terrible armament. It leads me to believe a Cold War gone hot in the late 1960s would've been a decisive Soviet win at sea at least. The Mk 16 is a nigh-useless relic against anything with a sonar and some maneuverability unless spent in unsustainable volumes, and the Mk 37's eye-watering sluggishness makes me wonder just how on Earth someone approved it becoming the US Navy's mainstay torpedo. And then there's the bug which allows enemy vessels to detect passive torpedoes in their baffles, which only further degrades the 37's already poor performance.

In the end, it feels like I have to cheese the subs to beat them, and warships feel unassailable 80% of the time. Surface-wise, the best I can do is focus on objectives, which are usually merchants, and most medals seem exceedingly out of reach considering the thresholds are the same whether you're puttering about with a Permit in '68 or annihilating everything in your sight on a Los Angeles in '84.

Sorry about the rant. Had to get it off my chest. I really like Cold Waters, but criticism is due where it's due.

I definitely had this opinion at first. '68 is HARD. I did get to the point though where I think I had surface engagements down pat though. Once you figure out how to get close enough (rear approach, flank speed deep) and how to keep the escorts off you when they spot you (Mark 37 would like to be your friend) they become kinda fun.

The thing I can't get over is the terrible sonar and how awful 37's are at sinking subs. I gave up trying to find the Yankee in the final mission and even supposedly noisy 50's boats take forever to find. I tend to get bored, go active and wait for them to shoot. Then I charge and basically dance around them waiting for however many 37's it takes to lock on, not wire break, not get distracted and actually do enough damage to sink whatever it is. I've genuinely considered ramming sometimes.

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by caine007

I definitely had this opinion at first. '68 is HARD. I did get to the point though where I think I had surface engagements down pat though. Once you figure out how to get close enough (rear approach, flank speed deep) and how to keep the escorts off you when they spot you (Mark 37 would like to be your friend) they become kinda fun.

The thing I can't get over is the terrible sonar and how awful 37's are at sinking subs. I gave up trying to find the Yankee in the final mission and even supposedly noisy 50's boats take forever to find. I tend to get bored, go active and wait for them to shoot. Then I charge and basically dance around them waiting for however many 37's it takes to lock on, not wire break, not get distracted and actually do enough damage to sink whatever it is. I've genuinely considered ramming sometimes.

It's not about difficulty, but rather frustrating boredom. The enemy is not necessarily a threat if you know to be careful, but you can't do much harm beyond unarmed ships unless you're really lucky and an escort is gunning straight for you, setting itself up for a down-the-throat Mk 16 shot, or it turns the wrong way when evading an Mk 37 (noticed they can do that if you make them aware of your position mid-evasion).

Sure, even if a 37 doesn't hit, it can keep Soviet warships busy for a good long while, opening the door to hitting mission targets. But it's not exactly exciting to be relegated to sinking tenders/transports all the time.

And subs are just hard to detect, but again, not too dangerous unless you botch your evasive maneuvers.

So ultimately, it's difficult for Ivan to hit you, and so is to hit them. Perhaps just fixing the baffles passive torp detection bug would be enough to make battles and positioning more interesting, and Mk 37s more reliable. Mk 16s could have their launch depth extended to 200ft, and given a circle search pattern (sources have been discussed elsewhere). Overall, I think both sides need to be made more dangerous: AI improvements will help the Soviets, and ironing out the bugs and balancing should help us in turn, producing more intense combat and less drunken fights.

PS: As for ramming, one time a November could've clipped my sail due to a miscalculation of mine, but my boat went right through. Seems vessel collisions aren't modelled.