Holy horology Batman, I think I found my next watch

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Is it actually the size of kitchen clock like it is on my screen

Not quite, but close. The diameter of the face is about 50mm That's a large watch. With the metal bracelet it is tipping the scales at 135 grams which is a Quarter Pounder!

My Seamaster, no tiny watch in itself, is a measly 40mm. But it is a chunky 141 grams so the Trueme is bigger but lighter. Mechanical watches have heavy stuff inside of them.

[Mr Quatro]

I would like a watch that is a stop watch too in order to mark how long it takes to wait for my order or how long I exercised, but I don't like the ones with little dials inside of the big dial.

I would like one that uses the whole face of the watch ... perhaps a fit watch is what I'm looking for.

@Commander Wallace

How can you have a Invicta Rolex style watch for 100.00 dollars, plus remember the salesman will charge you more if your wearing a rolex.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Nice!! What year?

About 2008 I believe. I bought it on Tim Temple 's Evine TV show for $1600. George J Von BurgIV was on the show and I only got the last one due to another buyers fall-thru creditcard!!! The only time I've indulged in such rashness with a credit card. The watch hit the tile floor about 2011 seriously jarring and damaging the chrongraph function which wouldn't stop until 2018, & adding to the workload of the movement when I finally got the worn mainspring replaced. One does not unlock the crown to adjust between 10 PM & 02:00AM when all is in motion to advance the date hand, month and day wheels, and incremental moonphase functions. On a watchwinder, it is set on right turn ; 1000 turns to stay wound when not worn. In upscale shops on the planet (incl Harrod's) several have looked at it on my wrist...and exclaimed "That's a real watch!" It helps because when the sales jerks know you're a knowledgeable fanatic, the markup price suddenly begins to drop.... Good God I just remembered I gotta "spring forward" an hour on all my watches, even my 3 'perpetual calender' solar powered Citizens' will need to be adjusted.

[Platapus]

Sometimes you have to grab the good deals when they happen. Sorry about the droppage.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Commander Wallace

A man was moving and carrying his grandfather clock to the moving truck at the curb and ran into a man on the sidewalk. They both fell to the sidewalk. The guy who was carrying the clock yelled, " why don't you watch where you are walking. "


The man who was run over yelled back, " why don't you wear a wrist watch like everyone else. "


The watch looks like a great watch but how well does it keep time ? I would consider the Invicta Rolex style watch for 100.00 dollars or the Seiko diver watch for about 250.00 dollars.

Hey Commander! a Croton will suffice for your Rolex knock-off! A nice Japanese automatic movement I got mine at Big 5 for $50 and the local Rolex dealer is even impressed! Plus you can hand it over to a highend bling-bandit on the mean streets without much ado! My dive watch is my wife's Seiko 150 meter groom gift to me of 38 years; worn in all oceans of the planet. Note the crown at the four o'clock position to reduce the risk of rock hits at depth. All real dive watches should hav this imho! I had watch serviced by Seiko to guarantee the watertightness when I noticed it slowing in the mid nineties; it still loses 5 minutes a week- even on the auto winder; <essential equipment $900+-- and the rotating bezel saves lives when computing air consumption 100 feet down hunting ferocious 40 lb+ lingcod in their Monterey wall cave hidouts....at night with a red lamp.

 

While guarding eggs, unique to the west coast: 5 feet (1.5 m), 70 pounds (32 kg); females are larger than males. lingcod have been known to attack humans. A lingcod's coloration makes this ambush predator well camouflaged in its rocky hideaway. Lingcod rely on surprise to capture prey—and on their large mouths, which have 18 sharp teeth to hold their catch securely. Their small, pointed teeth are interspersed with large, fanglike teeth. Like most bottom dwellers, lingcod are solitary fish and usually stray only a short distance from their rocky home base.

I kept the scratched crystal as patina from long use is a factor of the watches value.
My skin is allergic to the rubber band so I got a Walmart stainless steel bracelet capable of going over a neoprene suit sleeve...big, easy to read.... and still seeing heavy action on the high seas BBY!

[mapuc]

Someone mentioned Casio digital with same type of stuff like this Trume watch.

Chronograph
-Titanium case with 100m WR
-Altimeter
-Compass
-Barometer
-Temperature sensor

I like Casio so I would like to know a little more about this Casio.

Markus

[Platapus]

Crikey, take your pick from the G-Shock series.

One of the many nice things about Casio is that there are so many different models, you can line them up by function and choose which functions you want and there is probably a model that has all the functionality you want and none that you don't want. Of course you will have to accept the lower price and increased durability.

Seriously, the only issue with some of the Casio watches is the looks. If you like or can tolerate how they look, I don't think you can find a better value in multi-function watches.

There are Casio models that have exactly what I am looking for, but, for me, the looks are just too much. It is strictly a personal preference.

But even though I think that some of the Casio watches are fugly, I can still respect the craftsmanship and quality.

The new G-shock Mudmaster series is about as good as you can get, but unless your daily work outfit is camaflauge and the only make-up you wear is camo face paint, these watches don't exactly blend in well in a business environment. But from a cooleo factor, it is pretty cool.

If you want a more traditional design, there is the G-steel model line

The G-shock line of products range from $99.00 to almost a thousand. Which is pretty good considering that there are a lot of watch manufacturers where their bottom line watch starts above 1K

If they could just dial down the ugly to 10, I might consider it.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I like Casio so I would like to know a little more about this Casio.

Markus

Checkout the Casio Protrek and Pathfinder models.

[Commander Wallace]

Originally Posted by Nathaniel B.

This was my primary reason for buying the watch I currently wear: a Bulova Precisionist. When it was first introduced, Bulova claimed an accuracy of ± 10 seconds per year. They later backed off of that statement a little - changing it to something like "seconds per year" (i.e. less than a minute). Careful observation of my own Precisionist indicates a constant rate of about +0.2017 seconds per day ... or about +1m13s per year. Still pretty good if you ask me. And keep in mind this is without radio or GPS updates.

*I did use the barometer - rather successfully - to get an idea of the weather in the near future.

Nathan. I have a gold, square face cased Bulova with a black face / Bezel. It has always kept great time and is somewhat small and unobtrusive as time pieces go. I don't think anyone can go wrong with the offerings by Seiko, Pulsar or Citizen. They all make great time pieces / watches for a reasonable cost. They have a Quartz movement and in these offerings, I have never seen one that wasn't accurate. I also have a Pulsar diver watch that looks similar to Rolex but has a black case and bezel with chrome hands and a blue seconds hand. It's a quartz movement and cost me $150.00 a few years ago. It's still in great shape and keeps excellent time.



[QUOTE=Mr Quatro;2595941

@Commander Wallace

How can you have a Invicta Rolex style watch for 100.00 dollars, plus remember the salesman will charge you more if your wearing a rolex.[/QUOTE]


The Invicta Rolex style diver watches can be had for between $75.00- $ 250.00 I am listing the Amazon web site. Invicta's use a Seiko NH35A SII automatic movement and sweeping second hand. It’s a 24 jewel reliable workhorse, but it is low beat at 21,600 bph with accuracy of about + or - 15 seconds a day. Unfortunately, I have seen 2 Invicta watches purchased about the same time and similar styles with identical movements. One was completely accurate while the other lost a few minutes within an hour's time. That tells me that buying an invicta is a hit or miss proposition and consistency and quality control is iffy, at best.

https://www.amazon.com/Invicta-8926O.../dp/B000JQFX1G



I think the watch JimBuna has is one of the best you can get for a reasonable cost.

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

Hey Commander! a Croton will suffice for your Rolex knock-off! A nice Japanese automatic movement I got mine at Big 5 for $50 and the local Rolex dealer is even impressed! Plus you can hand it over to a highend bling-bandit on the mean streets without much ado! My dive watch is my wife's Seiko 150 meter groom gift to me of 38 years; worn in all oceans of the planet. Note the crown at the four o'clock position to reduce the risk of rock hits at depth. All real dive watches should hav this imho! I had watch serviced by Seiko to guarantee the watertightness when I noticed it slowing in the mid nineties; it still loses 5 minutes a week- even on the auto winder; <essential equipment $900+-- and the rotating bezel saves lives when computing air consumption 100 feet down hunting ferocious 40 lb+ lingcod in their Monterey wall cave hidouts....at night with a red lamp.

 

While guarding eggs, unique to the west coast: 5 feet (1.5 m), 70 pounds (32 kg); females are larger than males. lingcod have been known to attack humans. A lingcod's coloration makes this ambush predator well camouflaged in its rocky hideaway. Lingcod rely on surprise to capture prey—and on their large mouths, which have 18 sharp teeth to hold their catch securely. Their small, pointed teeth are interspersed with large, fanglike teeth. Like most bottom dwellers, lingcod are solitary fish and usually stray only a short distance from their rocky home base.

I kept the scratched crystal as patina from long use is a factor of the watches value.
My skin is allergic to the rubber band so I got a Walmart stainless steel bracelet capable of going over a neoprene suit sleeve...big, easy to read.... and still seeing heavy action on the high seas BBY!

I had never heard of the Croton but I still think the Seiko Watch Like JimBuna's and others are hard to beat with regards to quality and cost. With your diving and being on the water, your needs in a watch are probably greater than the average person needs. Mr Quatro had mentioned an inexpensive Timex and for the average person, the value is hard to beat as well.

I like my Seiko, Pulsar and Citizen watches as they have never disappointed me.
Thanks for the input gentlemen.

[Sean C]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Someone mentioned Casio digital with same type of stuff like this Trume watch.

Chronograph
-Titanium case with 100m WR
-Altimeter
-Compass
-Barometer
-Temperature sensor

I like Casio so I would like to know a little more about this Casio.

Markus

Markus,


The one I own is a Pathfinder, as Platapus mentioned. The particular model I own is the PAW2000T.





But Casio makes a variety of watches with these functions ... and more. Just explore their website at the link above for more info.


And here is a pic of the Bulova model on my wrist most of the time. (But not right now as I am preparing to change it over to DST.)

[Sean C]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Accuracy only applies when compared to an external source. What people generally consider accuracy is actually variance. How many seconds does the watch vary from day to day.

The terms are often used interchangeably but they are, in fact, different concepts.

I find this very interesting. I'm no horology expert, by any means - but I have never heard the term "variance" used in connection with timekeepers of any sort. The term I have heard used in this sense is "rate" - usually in connection with a ship's chronometer. The "rate" of a ship's chronometer (i.e. the amount of seconds fast or slow per unit of time) is usually determined every three years or so (the recommended interval of time between adjustments) by a qualified individual and then recorded and reported to the user of the chronometer so that they may make the necessary adjustments to their observations.


In my experience, the "accuracy" of a chronometer refers to the consistency of its "rate". In other words, when the Board of Longitude was looking for an "accurate" timepiece (or some other solution to the longitude problem), they weren't necessarily looking for a chronometer that would always show the correct Greenwich time. What they were looking for was a timepiece that could be corrected by a known [and stable] rate - such that the actual time at Greenwich could be determined by applying the necessary correction. A very difficult problem when considering that the only technology available at the time was mechanical and subjected to the pitching and rolling of a ship. This highlights the genius of John Harrison and his designs.



But, of course, this is all just semantics. What really matters is that we all understand that what we mean when we are using these terms. A much more common confusion occurs when discussing "accuracy" vs. "precision".


This leads me to an odd side note about my current everyday watch - the Bulova Precisionist. Bulova [at one time] was well known for their "Accutron" watch. This watch used a tuning fork instead of a balance wheel to regulate the timekeeping. It was a revolutionary technology at the time which made the Accutron more - well ... accurate than the average watch. The technology was so iconic that Bulova adopted the tuning fork as their logo.



Fast forward to today and we have the "Precisionist". This watch uses a three-pronged quartz crystal to achieve a more stable "rate" (or variance) than the average watch. And for the first runs, Bulova included the tuning fork logo on these watches - even though these watches did not use the same tuning fork technology as the Accutron watches. But now, in a well publicized move, Bulova has decided to remove the tuning fork logo from all of its watches except for the Accutron series - which presumably still uses this technology.


However, my Precisionist still bears the tuning fork logo at the top of the uppermost sub-dial (where the word "Bulova" appears in my picture) whereas the "Bulova" designation resides at the bottom of said sub-dial. Perhaps this is why I was able to purchase the watch at 60% off the recommended retail price at JacobTime.com. Or maybe not ... IDK.


Anyway ... cheers!


-Nathaniel

[Platapus]

Thank you for pointing out that in my long bombastic post I neglected to drone on about the third factor that can affect what is considered accuracy in a watch -- Loss/gain. Yikes, that's a pretty important thing to leave out. So let me repair with an even longer and more bombastic post. That' will learn ya!

Accuracy is an absolute instantaneous comparison to an external source. That source can be anything which is why whenever the term accuracy is used, it needs to be followed up with either to what extent or to what. With watches is is ass-umed to be accurate when compared to an atomic time signal, but that is not always a safe assumption. Nothing can be accurate with regard to itself. That concept is called variance which I will cover next.

Accuracy is an instantaneous absolute value. For example: At this instant, my watch is -4 seconds from the NIST time signal. The next time I check, my watch may be +3 seconds from the NIST time signal. Like any set of absolute values, I can take a Mean, Median, and Mode to create all sorts of statistics. But it is incorrect to use the commonly used phrase "My watch is accurate to +/- 5 seconds." A lot of people do it including watch people, but it is not actually the correct way to express it. I can, however report that my watch is on the average (mean) +3 seconds from the NIST time signal. I can say that my watch's median (center) is -2 seconds and that the mode (majority) may be 0 seconds. I can even calculate standard deviations of this data if I want to ensure of never being invited out to parties.

Variance, on the other hand is an internal measurement. It is a measurement of how repeatable is the precision of the watch movement. Mechanical watches are often measured in Beats per Hour. An hour was chosen many years ago as a good period of representation. A specific watch's balance wheel may operate at 28,800 BPH. This is actually a common BPH. This translates down to 8 beats per second or 4 hertz.

So a 28,800 BPH watch "ticks" at 4 ticks per second. You can see this if you can look carefully or better yet record the movement and slow it down. You should see four tiny jumps between each second mark.

Generally speaking higher BPH CAN result in some variance being "averaged out". However, a well made 2.5 hz watch will be better than a poorly made 5 hz watch. How does this relate to variance?

No watch beats at exactly 28,800 beats per hour every hour. But they get close. Sometimes it beats at less than 28.8k and sometimes it beats more than 28.8k and sometimes it beats exactly 28.8k. This being a mechanical watch full of mechanical stuff, position, movement, and gravity are only three of about a million things that can affect the precision of a watch movement.

The range of these values is called variance. This has nothing directly to do with accuracy. This is just how predictable does the watch movement .. well.. move.

Variance is reported out as a range. This range may be centered over zero as in this watch has a variance of +/- 5 seconds a day (aka the range of between -5 and + 5 seconds). But it can also be centered over another number. For example some METAS certified watches have a variance of -0/+5. (centered over 2.5) But just to keep the math easy, let's just consider a watch that has a variance of -5/+5 seconds a day.

Let's take this watch and sync it to the NIST time signal or some other other recognized "correct time" reference. After 10 days what will the accuracy of this watch? (show your work)

Pencils down

It will be somewhere between -50 seconds and + 50 seconds from the time reference. -5 seconds per day times 10 days is pretty close to -50.

Assuming no other factors, it will be a Gaussian distribution around the reference zero. This is why it is important to know what the center reference is and it is mostly but not always zero.

Unfortunately, with anything mechanical, the phrase "assuming no other factors" is a fantasy as there are always external factors. But watch engineers work very hard to mitigate these factors. But let's continue in our fantasy world of no external factors to keep the numbers easy. That's the great thing about math -- you can create fantasy worlds where numbers work easy. Engineers have to deal with reality.

This means that there is a tiny chance this watch will be -50 seconds and an equally tiny chance that this watch will be +50 seconds and a much larger chance it will be closer to zero difference. Now a watch with a smaller variance will have a greater chance of being close to zero than a watch with a wider variance. But at any one instant, a watch with a narrow variance may be less accurate than a watch with a larger variance!

But the odds are better with a smaller variance. Which is why watches with small variances are more difficult to make and are often more expensive. Adjusting the variance on a watch is a complicated process and often requires the disassembly of the mechanism.

Then there is the item I neglected to write about in my previous post.

Loss/gain. A loss/gain is a cumulative change in the accuracy of a watch over a period of observation. It is in one direction. A watch either gains or loses time. If a watch both loses and gains time, that is variance. The cumulative change in the accuracy is affected by the variance of the watch. The variance is not affected by the loss/gain.

HUH?

Here is an example I had with my watch.

My watch is a COSC certified chronometer that has a design variance of -4/+6 seconds per day. That's 10 seconds not centered at zero! Note that it is a design variance. Whether my watch actually has a variance of -4/+6 will have to be determined.

My watch had a loss of about 11 seconds a day. This loss was cumulative. One day after syncing, it was 11 seconds slow. The next day it was 22 seconds slow, the third day 33 seconds slow. Since this was a cumulative loss over a period of time, it is often called a Gain Rate or Loss Rate.

This being a loss and not a variance, there was no countering "+". This meant that my watch was experiencing a loss as opposed to an undesired variance.

True to Swiss precision, my watch was almost exactly 11 seconds slow. The actual variance values were between -2 and +4 according to my spreadsheet.

What? You don't keep a spreadsheet of the variances of YOUR watches???

This was actually good news as the variance was supposed to be -4/+6 but was actually -2/+4. This meant that my watch was very precisely inaccurate. If you are going to be wrong, at least be precisely wrong.

Let's say for a counter example that my watch's accuracy varied thusly:

Day 1: -11 seconds
Day 2: -4 seconds
Day 3: +1 seconds
Day 4: +20 seconds

This would not be an indication of gain/loss but an indicator of the variance being out of specs. That would be an expensive fix

But my watch was, with great precision losing about 11 seconds a day. This meant that the repair consisted of demagnetizing the movement and performing what is called a regulation which is often (and in my case was) a simple physical adjustment of the watch. Omega did it for free (yea) but took three weeks to do it (boo). If it was a problem in variance, it would have taken about $600.00 MINIMUM and about 12 weeks to fix.

So we have three separate, but often commonly confused concepts that affect what is called accuracy.

Accuracy - Instantaneous absolute comparison to an external reference
Variance - Continuous changes, over a period of observation, of the repeated precision of the movement
Gain/loss - Cumulative change over a period of time of the accuracy.

Of course, in the real world, your watch is affected by all of these at the same time. Actually all clocks are affected by this.

Even the venerated Cesium clocks have variance. Very very tiny variances that have mostly insignificant impacts on reality, but they are there. This is why UTC is actually a group effort involving multiple atomic clocks from all around the world or across the flat world depending on your beliefs. It is actually a Time that is Universally Coordinated.

My rant about the misuse of the term UTC will have to wait for another bombastic post.

[mapuc]

Thank you Platapus and Nathaniel B.

Well one thing is what you like or prefer when it comes to wrist watch another thing is what you can afford

Markus

[Platapus]

Well a watch is both a tool for representing time and a piece of jewelry.

Everyone makes a decision on a watch by balancing these two against cost.

To some, the way a watch looks is more important than accuracy. Many of the fashion watches are like this. You can buy a fashion watch with a quartz movement and no indices on the face. So you precisely know, within a variance of +/- 15 seconds a month that it is somewhere about 10 minutes past the hour??? Yikes. The Frau is like this.

There are people who buy Rolex watches and never bother to sync them. They just wear them. Double yikes

Then there the other idiots who fixate on accuracy and variance and deny the fact that most people in the world don't operate at high accuracy times. The meeting starts at 10:00 so plan on arriving at 9:55. If you show up at 9:59:59.9 you most likely will have to sit at the table as all the good seats are taken. Since we have no actual friends, we bicker to ourselves that the meeting should have started 22 seconds ago.

Sad

These people buy a watch based more on variance than appearance and are the ones that keep rich Swiss/Japanese watch makers rich.

Double sad

More normal humans want something that is accurate enough, good looking enough, and inexpensive enough. While horologists look down on these people, the people don't notice as they are busy going out with girls and actually enjoying life!

At least I can spend my time on the internet looking at Time.gov and syncing anything I can including the cat.

Protip: The variance of a cat makes syncing rather pointless. But that does not mean that I stop trying.

I don't have a watch problem. Other people think I have a watch problem.

[Platapus]

I like this guy and his other watch reviews are pretty good and most entertaining.