Helis and joysticks. What to get?!

Von Due · 11-29-12, 05:17 PM

Ok, I've decided to try dodging real life for a few moments and give a couple of flight sims another go. Those would be FS2004 and DSC Black Shark primarily but if time allows I'm keen on revisiting the old TIE Fighter as well as X:Tension too. Now here's the situation:

My Saitek X45 (cursed be thy name) is a goner and the best joystick I have is a gameport one with no good collective solution and no anti torque solution at all so I'm in the market for a new, preferably HOTAS setup.

Things I emphasize are precision, smoothness, centering and low to no dead band around center stick and long term reliability. FF is not at all important. In fact I will probably disable it after having a few giggles. Also controller software that doesn't require an MIT masters degree in computer science is a huge plus (the one thing I did appreciate with the X45). I couldn't code a hello world program if the world depended on it. Also, I am on a budget but will probably go for a week on rice and noodles for "the right HOTAS".

One candidate that keeps popping up is the Saitek X52 Pro + pedals. I never had a chance of seeing it hooked up to a pc so I only know it's one of the smoothest sticks I have ever had my hands on. How precise or reliable it is, I can't say. Reviews go from "stay away" to "all you'll ever need".

Other candidates seem to be Logitech's G940 (which I read is still plagued with silly and annoying flaws and deal breakers as well as it's being reported as 3 controllers and not 1 so bye bye TIE Fighter) and Thrustmaster's Warthog (seemingly waaay too pricey and from what I've read so far, you do need an MIT degree in computer science to get the most of it, not to mention some dirx limitations on buttons and axis which, correct me if I'm wrong, would render many buttons and axis useless).

So in short: So far the hottest HOTAS seems to be the X52 Pro + pedals. Anyone have personal experience with how good this is for helicopter sims? Reliability and the other factors mentioned above? Any particular reason I should look elsewhere, or why this would be The Choice? And those other candidates, can anyone with first hand experience with these and helicopters chime in and say what they think about those?

Would be greatly appreciated to see what you have to say.

PS: From what I've read the X52's MFD is little more than a smart sales stunt, with only one game being able to communicate with it unless you are a Professor at MIT's computer science advanced research facility. Any knowing where one might find plugins for various games to make it work?

Herr-Berbunch · 11-29-12, 06:09 PM

X52 Pro is a great stick setup, and I found the software for it a tad easier than some others (Thrustmaster, I'm looking at you!), but I think there isn't one around that doesn't need a great deal of education in the field.

Just make sure it is the Pro and not the cheap and horrible, plasticy non-Pro. Never used the pedals so can't say what they're like. And just make sure you've got room on your desktop for them - I really didn't have much room, hence why it's gone.

Dowly · 11-29-12, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

Just make sure it is the Pro and not the cheap and horrible, plasticy non-Pro.

Hey! I happen to be a happy owner of one of those cheap and horrible, plasticy non-Pros!

magicstix · 11-29-12, 08:01 PM

I liked the HOTAS warthog until I dropped it on my foot...

However, I don't think it's particularly good for a helo; it doesn't really have a good equivalent to the collective control, but then I've yet to see a controller that does.

Skybird · 11-29-12, 09:45 PM

CH gear user myself since over twelve years: Fighterstick and ProThrottle. This is usable for everything, and maybe the most easiest of them all to program, it also is very flexible. I use the Throttle as key command centre for other sims as well, racing for example.

Throw in a couple of SimPed Pro pedals. Foot spacing is wider than with most other pedals, which I consider to be more comfortable.

And a must for flightsimming: TrackIR.

Skybird · 11-29-12, 09:50 PM

Found it again: you may want to read this in-depth comparison:

http://www.simhq.com/_technology/PDF...Systems_v1.pdf

And the update they later released:

http://www.simhq.com/_technology2/technology_094a.html

CCIP · 11-29-12, 10:02 PM

Personally I really like the non-pros

Von Due · 11-30-12, 02:13 AM

Wow thanks for the replies, you guys! Hugely appreciated.

In a bit of a random order:
CH. I have looked at it but in this corner of the world, they tend to become pretty steeply priced.

TrackIR: Not unless I would make my own. Again: Price. I do appreciate the difference it would make though, just that the price is prohibitive.

Thanks for those links to SimHQ. I've read the 2nd article already, the 1st was new to me.

I will definitely go for the X52 Pro and not the regular one, IF I go for the 52 series at all.

Alas, it seems no system out there is perfect, every one of them have flaws to various degrees and not even diamonds last forever. Task is to find one that has a likelihood of not breaking down after a few months. One would think a $300-$600 setup would not have been put together by garage sales bits and bobs scavenged from around the countryside but ok, enough ramblings

Anyway, I am leaning heavily on the X52 Pro and that is after I have found I can get a new TM WH for about the same price or even less. For helis, that smoothness, the stick's exactness, in the lack of a better word, centering and delivering just the right signal, is more important than for planes. From what I've read so far, the TM WH is a bit tricky there making hovering more than challenging. Sure I would love to have a gazillion buttons and switches on the throttle unit but with no good heli cyclic to match, they're of no use.

Oh and that MIT computer science thing, I miiiiight have been exaggerating just a bit but I would certainly choose a graphic interface a la Saitek/Logitech over text based. Just looking at the text based software makes me dizzy.

(Edited a couple of times because it's WAY too early here now)

Skybird · 11-30-12, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Von Due

Alas, it seems no system out there is perfect, every one of them have flaws to various degrees and not even diamonds last forever. Task is to find one that has a likelihood of not breaking down after a few months. One would think a $300-$600 setup would not have been put together by garage sales bits and bobs scavenged from around the countryside but ok, enough ramblings

Anyway, I am leaning heavily on the X52 Pro and that is after I have found I can get a new TM WH for about the same price or even less.

Really...? Over here in Germany, the Thrustmaster costs twice as much as the X52pro, and in many shops even more. Prices are from 320-400 Euros.

X52pro at German Amazon 160 Euro. Normal X52 110 Euros.

The CH HOTAS I have occaisonally seen for 120-130 per item.

On CH quality I only can say that mine lasts since twelve years. The potentiometers have had a mild wear-and-tear after so much time, which is no surprise, which I compensate by entering a deathzone of 2-3%. On longevity, I have heared only good things on CH.

But okay, I am drifting off. Was just wondering that in your place a Warthog HOTAS should cost as much as an X52pro. Find it difficult to believe that.

Von Due · 11-30-12, 08:13 AM

Skybird: Yeah it seems pretty unreal to me too but that's what the low price guides tell me. I saw X52's on Ebay shipped from Germany but the page had an ugly banner saying "Not shipping to your country"

Norway is a land of scoundrels I know but... Anyway, with shipping and all (and for something this expensive I really like a local shop to go to when things go south) the X52 Pro goes for anything from 2400 NOK to 3500 NOK for a full setup with pedals. Roughly 8 NOK to a euro... I have seen the WH here going as low as 2400 NOK! Ok, it doesn't come with pedals but still.

And please don't get me wrong when I say no diamonds last forever

Seems these high end systems all have their rotten apples in the batch but of course in that batch there are units that keep ticking year after year.

Red October1984 · 11-30-12, 08:31 AM

I've got an old but great Logitech Wingman Force 3D. After 10 years, it just has a bit of pull in the rudder.

Von Due · 11-30-12, 08:53 AM

My all time favourite is the Logitech Interceptor. Never once let me down. Not once and the feel, the smoothness, it's unreal. Unfortunately it has a gameport plug and the throttle is not good for collective duties. Yaw control is abscent. Ok, a gameport to USB adapter would be a solution but drivers would be an issue, as would getting a collective control and pedals to work with it to use with older games.

Herr-Berbunch · 11-30-12, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly

Hey! I happen to be a happy owner of one of those cheap and horrible, plasticy non-Pros!

Sorry, I thought you had the grown-up version.

Didn't mean to offend.

Von Due · 12-01-12, 10:56 AM

Ok, the X52 Pro it is. I was concerned about deadzones but after reading, the Pro is better there than the regular 52 and even fixable if it evolves into a problem.

EDIT: The madness, the madness, I really shouldn't but new X52 + pedals are in the mail. Woot!

Cowboy10uk · 12-11-12, 07:52 AM

At the moment, I'm currently flying the BS with my fantastic TM Warthog and saitek pro pedals. It's very responsive, it does the job and I love it, I have in the past used the Cougar and the X52 and all are very good sticks. I guess it really depends on your budget and what you are looking for.

However the one bit I do miss is there is no good range and priced collectives for us helo pilots.

I am following http://www.komodosimulations.co.uk very closely, they are saying that they will bring sticks and collectives to us that have interchangeable heads, so will can swap the look of them depending on which helo we are flying. That in itself is very very appealing, well to me anyway.

Best of all, they are tasting a price range around the £300 to £400 range for a compete stick or collective and I think £200 for different heads.

If they can pull it off, I think that sounds quite good value. Hopefully the first interchangeable sticks will appear early next year.

This isn't a sales pitch either although I know it sounds like one, just letting you all know of a new product that will be worth watching.

Until it arrives though, my trusty TM Warthog will serve me well

P.S. I know they don't have much info about these new grips and collectives on that site, but the owner did announce it here and has been keeping the thread updated with info. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=95144

Cowboy10uk

11-29-12, 05:17 PM	#1
Von Due Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,660 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	Helis and joysticks. What to get?! Ok, I've decided to try dodging real life for a few moments and give a couple of flight sims another go. Those would be FS2004 and DSC Black Shark primarily but if time allows I'm keen on revisiting the old TIE Fighter as well as X:Tension too. Now here's the situation: My Saitek X45 (cursed be thy name) is a goner and the best joystick I have is a gameport one with no good collective solution and no anti torque solution at all so I'm in the market for a new, preferably HOTAS setup. Things I emphasize are precision, smoothness, centering and low to no dead band around center stick and long term reliability. FF is not at all important. In fact I will probably disable it after having a few giggles. Also controller software that doesn't require an MIT masters degree in computer science is a huge plus (the one thing I did appreciate with the X45). I couldn't code a hello world program if the world depended on it. Also, I am on a budget but will probably go for a week on rice and noodles for "the right HOTAS". One candidate that keeps popping up is the Saitek X52 Pro + pedals. I never had a chance of seeing it hooked up to a pc so I only know it's one of the smoothest sticks I have ever had my hands on. How precise or reliable it is, I can't say. Reviews go from "stay away" to "all you'll ever need". Other candidates seem to be Logitech's G940 (which I read is still plagued with silly and annoying flaws and deal breakers as well as it's being reported as 3 controllers and not 1 so bye bye TIE Fighter) and Thrustmaster's Warthog (seemingly waaay too pricey and from what I've read so far, you do need an MIT degree in computer science to get the most of it, not to mention some dirx limitations on buttons and axis which, correct me if I'm wrong, would render many buttons and axis useless). So in short: So far the hottest HOTAS seems to be the X52 Pro + pedals. Anyone have personal experience with how good this is for helicopter sims? Reliability and the other factors mentioned above? Any particular reason I should look elsewhere, or why this would be The Choice? And those other candidates, can anyone with first hand experience with these and helicopters chime in and say what they think about those? Would be greatly appreciated to see what you have to say. PS: From what I've read the X52's MFD is little more than a smart sales stunt, with only one game being able to communicate with it unless you are a Professor at MIT's computer science advanced research facility. Any knowing where one might find plugins for various games to make it work?

11-29-12, 06:09 PM	#2
Herr-Berbunch Kaiser Bill's batman Join Date: May 2010 Location: AN72 Posts: 13,203 Downloads: 76 Uploads: 0	X52 Pro is a great stick setup, and I found the software for it a tad easier than some others (Thrustmaster, I'm looking at you!), but I think there isn't one around that doesn't need a great deal of education in the field. Just make sure it is the Pro and not the cheap and horrible, plasticy non-Pro. Never used the pedals so can't say what they're like. And just make sure you've got room on your desktop for them - I really didn't have much room, hence why it's gone. __________________

11-29-12, 09:45 PM	#5
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,500 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	CH gear user myself since over twelve years: Fighterstick and ProThrottle. This is usable for everything, and maybe the most easiest of them all to program, it also is very flexible. I use the Throttle as key command centre for other sims as well, racing for example. Throw in a couple of SimPed Pro pedals. Foot spacing is wider than with most other pedals, which I consider to be more comfortable. And a must for flightsimming: TrackIR. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-29-12, 09:50 PM	#6
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,500 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Found it again: you may want to read this in-depth comparison: http://www.simhq.com/_technology/PDF...Systems_v1.pdf And the update they later released: http://www.simhq.com/_technology2/technology_094a.html __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-29-12, 10:02 PM	#7
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Personally I really like the non-pros __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

11-29-12, 08:01 PM	#4
magicstix Captain Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Nuclear submarine under the North Pole Posts: 481 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	I liked the HOTAS warthog until I dropped it on my foot... However, I don't think it's particularly good for a helo; it doesn't really have a good equivalent to the collective control, but then I've yet to see a controller that does.

11-30-12, 02:13 AM	#8
Von Due Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,660 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	Wow thanks for the replies, you guys! Hugely appreciated. In a bit of a random order: CH. I have looked at it but in this corner of the world, they tend to become pretty steeply priced. TrackIR: Not unless I would make my own. Again: Price. I do appreciate the difference it would make though, just that the price is prohibitive. Thanks for those links to SimHQ. I've read the 2nd article already, the 1st was new to me. I will definitely go for the X52 Pro and not the regular one, IF I go for the 52 series at all. Alas, it seems no system out there is perfect, every one of them have flaws to various degrees and not even diamonds last forever. Task is to find one that has a likelihood of not breaking down after a few months. One would think a $300-$600 setup would not have been put together by garage sales bits and bobs scavenged from around the countryside but ok, enough ramblings Anyway, I am leaning heavily on the X52 Pro and that is after I have found I can get a new TM WH for about the same price or even less. For helis, that smoothness, the stick's exactness, in the lack of a better word, centering and delivering just the right signal, is more important than for planes. From what I've read so far, the TM WH is a bit tricky there making hovering more than challenging. Sure I would love to have a gazillion buttons and switches on the throttle unit but with no good heli cyclic to match, they're of no use. Oh and that MIT computer science thing, I miiiiight have been exaggerating just a bit but I would certainly choose a graphic interface a la Saitek/Logitech over text based. Just looking at the text based software makes me dizzy. (Edited a couple of times because it's WAY too early here now) Last edited by Von Due; 11-30-12 at 02:31 AM.

11-30-12, 08:13 AM	#10
Von Due Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,660 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	Skybird: Yeah it seems pretty unreal to me too but that's what the low price guides tell me. I saw X52's on Ebay shipped from Germany but the page had an ugly banner saying "Not shipping to your country" Norway is a land of scoundrels I know but... Anyway, with shipping and all (and for something this expensive I really like a local shop to go to when things go south) the X52 Pro goes for anything from 2400 NOK to 3500 NOK for a full setup with pedals. Roughly 8 NOK to a euro... I have seen the WH here going as low as 2400 NOK! Ok, it doesn't come with pedals but still. And please don't get me wrong when I say no diamonds last forever Seems these high end systems all have their rotten apples in the batch but of course in that batch there are units that keep ticking year after year.

11-30-12, 08:31 AM	#11
Red October1984 Airplane Nerd Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 6,241 Downloads: 115 Uploads: 0	I've got an old but great Logitech Wingman Force 3D. After 10 years, it just has a bit of pull in the rudder. __________________

11-30-12, 08:53 AM	#12
Von Due Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,660 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	My all time favourite is the Logitech Interceptor. Never once let me down. Not once and the feel, the smoothness, it's unreal. Unfortunately it has a gameport plug and the throttle is not good for collective duties. Yaw control is abscent. Ok, a gameport to USB adapter would be a solution but drivers would be an issue, as would getting a collective control and pedals to work with it to use with older games.

12-01-12, 10:56 AM	#14
Von Due Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,660 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	Ok, the X52 Pro it is. I was concerned about deadzones but after reading, the Pro is better there than the regular 52 and even fixable if it evolves into a problem. EDIT: The madness, the madness, I really shouldn't but new X52 + pedals are in the mail. Woot! Last edited by Von Due; 12-03-12 at 09:39 AM.

12-11-12, 07:52 AM	#15
Cowboy10uk Watch Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 17 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	At the moment, I'm currently flying the BS with my fantastic TM Warthog and saitek pro pedals. It's very responsive, it does the job and I love it, I have in the past used the Cougar and the X52 and all are very good sticks. I guess it really depends on your budget and what you are looking for. However the one bit I do miss is there is no good range and priced collectives for us helo pilots. I am following http://www.komodosimulations.co.uk very closely, they are saying that they will bring sticks and collectives to us that have interchangeable heads, so will can swap the look of them depending on which helo we are flying. That in itself is very very appealing, well to me anyway. Best of all, they are tasting a price range around the £300 to £400 range for a compete stick or collective and I think £200 for different heads. If they can pull it off, I think that sounds quite good value. Hopefully the first interchangeable sticks will appear early next year. This isn't a sales pitch either although I know it sounds like one, just letting you all know of a new product that will be worth watching. Until it arrives though, my trusty TM Warthog will serve me well P.S. I know they don't have much info about these new grips and collectives on that site, but the owner did announce it here and has been keeping the thread updated with info. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=95144 Cowboy10uk