LuftWolf and Amizaur's Weapons and Sensors Realism Mod

[SquidB]

Expect a full list of changes tonight, and perhaps the mod itself.

Wow you guys are prevelant, excellent news. You guys are making up for SCS's tardyness in patching this software and making SP a viable challenge.

Fantastic

[jlab]

yes, big ups luftwolf and amizaur. it's nothing against the DWX crew at all, but thanks for stepping into the void...

i confess to playing more sub command/scx than anything lately...

[LuftWolf]

Ok, here is a working list of changes for the next version of the mod.

Keep in mind, a number of these changes constitute major readjustments, and as such, may need to be refined an integer this way or that in future versions.

Submarine and Ship Sound Level Fix-- (In colloboration with Periscope Depth, credit also to Finiteless and jsteed)

I have lowered the Passive Sound Levels of the submarines generally to decrease detection ranges in ASW and adjusted them to reflect real world values. Also, American warships have been made quieter. Here is a sample of values.

Han-74, OHP/Spruance-68, Akula I-62, Oscar/688-60, Trafalgar/AkulaIimp-59, 688i/Vepr'-58, Gepard/Kilo-57, Ohio/SW-55, KiloImp-53, Collins-50.

Sensor Changes (In colloboration with Periscope Depth):

I have added sensors to all sonar-bearing platforms that reflect realistic sonars. I have done this in the following method. Divided the sonars into three catagories: Western, Modern Russian/Soviet-Nuclear, Eastern Diesel/Old Eastern Block. From the Western, I made three scaled versions each of the Sphere, Hull, and TA sonars from the 688i sensors, and assigned them to each platform in the game with Western sonars, according to level and whether they had a TA. I then did the same for the Modern Russian, borrowing from the Akula Sensors, assigning them to nuclear submarines with modern Eastern Sonar. The Kilo array model I used for diesels with eastern sonars and old submarines, which are mostly eastern.

The primary difference between the Western and Eastern sonars are the washout speed. The best Russian arrays are more sensitive than the worst Western arrays (still good), but the Western arrays maintain a signal at a higher speed. The new Eastern sonars and the old Eastern sonars differ in terms of their maximum range, the Kilo sensors I used for the model are much shorter range than the Akula sensors.

Akula II Gepard/Oscar-- I have added the Pelamida II, which has a max operational speed 4 kts faster than the Pelamida. This is a hypothetical change.

Torpedo Changes:

Amizaur is currently modeling varying-quality seeker cones for torpedos. He also has doctrines that prevent AI platforms from sinking ships with torpedos launched at submarines and, *perhaps*, a doctrine-level fix that prevents torpedos from exploding on CM's!!!

I have reduced the speeds of all torpedos over 55 kts with the following compensations: ADCAP-given PSL 15 points lower than other torpedos (from finiteless Realism Mod); type 89, Spearfish, APR-2E compensated with extra range; Type 40 no other changes, as it has been considered before on its own to reduce effectiveness of SS-N-27 ASW.

I have changed some Russian ASW warfare aircraft to drop the APR-2E, the same torp as the Helix, as previously it had been overlooked that they were dropping the modded 53cm/USGT.

Mk46--Given Mk54 hypothetical specs 17km@50kts with max depth 500m and a light weight, for airdrop use in littoral waters. I have given the Mk46 ASW torpedo Mk 46 specs, and swapped out the modded Mk 46 in all non-American platforms and the Mk46 ASROC. I thought it wasn't good to have a useless Mk46, so I did some research and came up with a torpedo that is marginally better than the Mk50 all round, but doesn't replace it. As the Navy's intention is to have a lower cost option to the Mk50, which is very expensive. For me personally, I will be taking more Mk 54's now, unless I need to kill something deep!

Ok, I think that is it.

I am waiting to hear back on a few things and then rewrite the readme and probably change a few values this way and that, and the mod should be out in version 2.0.

I hope you guys enjoy! :|\


EDIT:

To Be Added:

-Sonar sensor feedback enabled for ADCAP (from Amizaur)!

-Civilian Ship Damage remodelling, to make civilian ships like Super Tanker realistically hard to sink.

-Passive Sonars added for AI surface platforms.

[TLAM Strike]

Ok that’s a lot to take in. Let me know if I got this right.

No changes to the Type 40.

Mk46 changed to Mk54 for US Platforms. Foreign and ASROC's still have true Mk46s

^Personly thats how I would like to see it.

[LuftWolf]

Yes on both points.

The only change to the Type 40 is a reduction in speed to 55 kts, in order to: prevent oscillation bug, reduce effectiveness of SS-N-27 ASW.

[Amizaur]

As far as I know there is no Russian electric ASW torpedo with speed of 65kts (to not say 72kts). The torpedo used in SS-N-27 ASW missile is most probably very light MPT-1UE electric torpedo. There are ASW "underwater rockets" from APR family (ASW torpedos propelled by solid fuel) with speed of 65kts and more, but they are not used as payload in SS-N-27 ASW (too heavy) and have limited range (about 2nm). So there is no real life torpedo that DW's Type-40 (65kts to 7nm) could represent.
And many people complained that, as Type-40 impossible to evade because of it's speed set to 65kts (and because of game bug, the real torpedo speed was up to 73kts!!!). Don't know parameters of MPT-1UE torpedo, couldn't find it on the net (if someone knows, please tell us!), but every other Russian small electric torps were about 40kts. Because MPT-1UE is new design, it's possible that is capable of about 50kts I think. Most modern, state of the art western electric torpedos like MU-90 are capable of 50-55kts. More speed for Type-40 would be completly unrealistic I think.

BTW I'm back to work, will make the seekers now. Luftwolf are you sure you didn't set some noise levels too low ? Detection ranges lower than for Kilo Improved (NL < 55) are really close, sure realistic but are we doing hyper-realistic mod or one-step-fix mod of SCS database ? :-)

[XabbaRus]

http://www.wonderland.org.nz/rnss.htm

Decent link about Russian missiles.

I understood the SS-N-27 to be armed with a APR-2 or 3 rocket powered torpedo... but that could be wrong. That is what the link about says but the APR series weigh bewteen 450-575Kg

Hard one to find though this link is good..

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTRussian_post-WWII.htm

[Amizaur]

SS-N-27 was initially planned to be armed with 350mm APR-3E as payload, but eventually it turned out to be too heavy (475kg) and insteed much lighter (285kg) 324mm electric torpedo was used.

But when I'm browsing the net now, looking for 91RE1 data, everywhere I find it's range given as 50km which is 27nm. Maybe range of in-game SS-N-27 ASW should be increased...?
One source (quite recent) says that 50km is the range when launched from max depth (150m), the absolute max range of the 91RE1 missile was given as 100km (54nm) ! (well, it may be possible, the missile is large, carries light payload and have top speed of Mach 2.5) And that it will eventually replace Stallion and Starfish in Russian navy.

So we reduced Type-40 torpedo speed, but maybe insteed we have to increase SS-N-27 ASW range to at least 27nm ?

[LuftWolf]

Amizaur, I am going to increase the range of the SS-N-27 ASW missile to make up for the lower speed of Type 40, as you suggested.

In terms of the Passive Sound Levels, doesn't everyone like the idea of getting torped by a Collins you never heard?

In all seriousness, I would rather aim to set the mod at realistic and have to adjust for gameplay, rather than try to find "the best" gameplay settings, and then have everyone argue because it's subjective, and then, in the end, have to adjust things to be more realistic anyway.

I, personally, really like the idea that some AI platforms are in some cases better than human controlled platforms. We'll have to see, but given the specs of some of the AI platforms in terms of their new sonars and sound levels, we really may be in truly "Dangerous Waters" now!

[stormrider_sp]

What I did: (everything based on fas.org)

-Akula 1, I, and 2, share the same hull sensors. The MGK-503-M Skat.

-Akula 1 and I share the same TA - Pelamida

-Akula 2 has an improved version of this TA, the Pelamida II, and sailing with the tide, I followed the same thinking of the TB-16 and TB-23, since the TB-23 is more sensitive, I gave it a slower washout.

-Oscar II has the MGK-503 Sharkgill "sphere", Shark ribs "hull" and MG-519 Mouse Roar "active", also, the Pelamida TA

-I gave the Typhoon the same sensors of the Oscar II

-Victor 3 has the MGK-400 Rubicon and Pithon TA (older sensors so less effective, very close to the Kilo sensors)

-Kilo has the MGK-400EM Rubicon (Shark Teeth sonars)

-Han received that MGK-400 Rubicon

-The 688 received the same sensors of the 688i excluding the TB-23 that I gave to the starboard ta of the 688i

-The Ohio has the BQQ-5 bow and TB-16 TA
Also, I changed the Ohio so that it becomes the SSGN version loaded with up to 154 tomahawk missiles either TASM or TLAM.


American Surface ships:

-Ticonderoga: SQS-53 LF bow (A/P)
-Ticonderoga VLS: SQQ-89 suite (with SQS-53 LF bow), SQR-19 TA
-Arleigh Burke (FII-A): SQQ-89 suite (with SQS-53 LF bow A/P), Kingfisher mine detection.
-Arleigh Burke: SQQ-89 suite (with SQS-53C LF bow A/P), SQR-19 TA
-Spruance: SQQ-89 suite (with SQS-53C LF bow A/P), SQR-19 TA

[Amizaur]

OK so I'll send you all data I have about real submarine noise levels, and some tools to scale those data for DW.

[LuftWolf]

Stormrider,

This is essentially what I have done with the sonars as well, however, I have changed the names of AI sensors for uniformity with debug and dbgviewer.

All of the specific changes you mentioned are essentially identical to what i have, except for the Oscar and Typhoon hull/sphere. I have the oscar with same sensors as Gepard (with Pelamida II) and Typhoon and other late soviet designs with slightly reduced sonars. I have gotten info from Periscope Depth that the Oscar may be the most currently worked-on Russian platform, so it follows that the sonar would be upgraded at least to Akula standards.

My Pelamida II has Max speed increased but same sensitivity, as I assume the Russians would be putting effort into developing sonars that allow for their subs to operate at higher speeds while remaining tactical. At least, that's what I want from my Gepard.

Also, my information has the Han being upgraded to use French sonar (DUUX-5, from the USNI and internet), so I gave it the same capability as the Rubis, minus the TA.

Amizaur, cool.

[LuftWolf]

I need to emphasize that any discussion of particulars about this stuff looks more or less the same whether there are experts involved or not: "My data/heresy says this." "No, my data/heresy says that." Etc, etc...

This is all open to review and discussion of course about particular values and whether or not such and such a ship has such and such a this or that, but the basic goal is to make DW work better now. I'll be more than glad to make changes in later versions based on new or better data.

[stormrider_sp]

yeah, that´s what I was trying to explain in the other topic about individual sensors... most platforms share the same sensors.

I was playing a few minutes ago, and I found a bug probably in the doctrines of the Helos.

I promoted a hostile submarine to link so that the Spruance would vector one of its inboud choppers to the contact. It did in fact, but the Helo just kept flying around the contact.....I think that it should deploy its dipping sonar to confirm the classification or launch a buoy or something, but what´s good in fly around it......

[LuftWolf]

Are you using the corrected helodipping.txt doctrine by Bill? It's available on the download page on his site.

I think it is designed to correct that behavior.

Yeah, I was amazed at how many ships and subs use the same sensor suites in RL.