On the periscope notepad

joegrundman · 10-25-08, 08:35 AM

I have come to the conclusion that the notepad system in SH4UBM is not only useless, it's an impediment to accurate manual targeting.

Obviously rather than overhaul the system completely the designers decided to resurrect the SH3 notepad system. But it is not exactly the same and the differences between them have a big effect on the versatility of the system.

OK, in SH3 there are default measurements, AOB 0, Range 0, speed 0.

In SH4, the default measurements are AOB 0, Range 3000 (IIRC, but anyway, not 0), speed 0

With both systems you can input all your data using the tools provided and send to TDC, or you can go to the TDC page and manually input

But with SH3 you could manually input speed into the TDC, and if you only send updated AOB and range data from the notepad, then this will not affect your speed input. This is very important, since few manual targeters regularly use the speed measuring equipment available from the notepad.

However with SH4 this is not possible because to send data from the notepad will reset the TDC speed to whatever the default is.. Therefore you cannot set speed using the TDC, and update the range and AOB solution using the notepad and stadimeter, without also going back to the TDC and changing the speed setting, wasting valuable seconds before firing.

Please correct me if i'm wrong here.

MH · 10-25-08, 09:29 AM

I hate that system too and it a reason i dont play u-boats in sh4.Its a mess.
Would be much better to have (somehow)the system of data input copied from fleet boats.Without the automatic PK ,just the dials on right side.

gutted · 10-31-08, 07:26 PM

i too hate how if you hit the X button to clear out the notepad.. it also clears out everything in your TDC dials.

i like to set my speed manually like you. sometimes i use the notepad to input AOB.. sometimes i use the TDC dials.

in any case..after i had the speed and AOB set i would hit the X button to clear out the notepad.. and then start using the notepad to keep JUST my range TDC dial updated. but that feature is gone now.

booooo!

Mattman[CDN] · 11-01-08, 02:01 PM

I agree with all three above , is there a Mod that can make the settings available again in the attack scope?

Frederf · 11-01-08, 03:42 PM

Just a couple days ago I tried 1.5 UB-ATO and found the way they do TDC entry to be completely unusable for the reasons listed above.

I really wish that instead of they hokey "helping hand" automated speed gathering method they force on you, they would instead give a way just to call out timestamped bearing/ranges that are put onto the attack/nav map and let you figure out course and speed from that.

It would be a lot more realistic and flexible.

Hitman · 11-02-08, 04:10 AM

I have never used it, even in SH3. Found long ago that collecting data with external tools and printed tables (For distance) is way faster and more accurate.

IMO we should use the slot in the menu.ini to eliminate the notepad and replace it with something more useful, like a wiz-wheel or such. The big pity is that now that we have a proper double-image stadimeter it becomes unusable

How I wish they had left the same system as with the US interface, where you can input directly your heigth estimate and hence take as reference point mast, funnel, bridge or whatever you prefer. Browsing the recognition manual for a match before you can make a measurement is PITA

LukeFF · 11-02-08, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitman

Browsing the recognition manual for a match before you can make a measurement is PITA

Onkel Neal · 11-02-08, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitman

Browsing the recognition manual for a match before you can make a measurement is PITA

:rotfl:

.

joegrundman · 11-03-08, 07:22 AM

OMG that's brilliant! I love it! :rotfl:

But i think this discussion could be a starting point for a periscope interface overhaul discussion

I for one would certainly be willing to start modding the interface, but what would be a better setup?

MH · 11-03-08, 11:11 AM

For a start it would be great just to have TDC fleet boat dials with changed "uboatish" look nothing more.
The ultimate would be OLC style interface.
As for now the only way to play that makes sense is with automatic targeting.

Frederf · 11-03-08, 01:39 PM

There's a middle ground where the targetting officer fills in the blanks yes? That's at least in between manual and auto targeting.

Fish40 · 12-15-08, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MH

For a start it would be great just to have TDC fleet boat dials with changed "uboatish" look nothing more.
The ultimate would be OLC style interface.
As for now the only way to play that makes sense is with automatic targeting.

Something like it already exists: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...german+bearing I'm not sure about its' present status, and IIRC it wouldn't work with higher resolutions. I requested several times that this be integrated in the RFB mod, and I was assured it was on the "to do" list. I think right now there are more pressing problems for the RFB team to iron out first.

I also PM'ed OLC himself, about the prospect of creating a GUI mod for SH4, but unfortunately OLC has no plans to do so

This mod is priceless to me in SH3, and I would love it to become a mainstay here, for us manual targeters.

XLjedi · 12-15-08, 08:46 PM

For the Uboats in SH4 I do the same thing I did in SH3... totally ignore the notepad.

I set the TDC inputs using the TDC dials on the attack map. A feature that is noticeably absent from the attack map for the US fleetboats!

The real question is...

Why are there no adjustable position keeper dials available on the attack map for the US boats???

green_abobo · 07-25-09, 01:07 PM

all i use the notepad for is preliminary checks for speed,bearing,and range. when they get within 3000 meters,i use the battlemap controls to fine-tune last minute changes in the target's bearing. i find it easier to work with,and it makes the sub semi-auto with the salvo controls.

ug, i take it back. not as easy as previouly realized. lol.

karamazovnew · 07-25-09, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by green_abobo

all i use the notepad for is preliminary checks for speed,bearing,and range. when they get within 300 meters,i use the battlemap controls to fine-tune last minute changes in the target's bearing. i find it easier to work with,and it makes the sub semi-auto with the salvo controls.

300 m? You'd be killed by your own torpedo blast (if it did arm itself in 300 m). I'm not sure if i'm reading this right, but you have just smashed all of my understanding of SH Uboat manual targetting.

What Joegrundman said was that because SH4 no longer ignores 0 values when sending data to the TDC (like SH3 did), the notepad becomes such a big problem that it's better not to send the data at all, but modify them manually in the Attack Map view.

So what you should do is:
1 - use the stadimeter to get precise bearing/range to plot the target's speed and it's course line (or press the stopwatch button to get them automatically). Then choose a proper heading to intercept the target (based on it's speed and heading). After that don't change your course anymore.
2 - use a protractor to find the what the target's AOB will be when it will cross your 000 (sometime in the future)
3 - reset your scope to 000
4 - go back to attack map, turn TDC autoupdate off and input the speed (found at step1) and AOB (found at step 2), then turn autoupdate back on
5- as you approach the fire point( if the target doens' spot you, since it will not change her course or speed), just get a quick range (but don't send it through the notepad to the TDC!!! cause it will reset the speed and AOB again)
6- go to attack map, turn autoupdate off and quickly input that range, then turn autoupdate on again.
7- place your scope on the target's juicy parts and fire torpedoes one by one per juicy part, not in salvos

.

If the notepad did work correctly, you would be able to remove the 6'th step. And of course, not switch so much to the attack map screen.

10-25-08, 08:35 AM	#1
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	On the periscope notepad I have come to the conclusion that the notepad system in SH4UBM is not only useless, it's an impediment to accurate manual targeting. Obviously rather than overhaul the system completely the designers decided to resurrect the SH3 notepad system. But it is not exactly the same and the differences between them have a big effect on the versatility of the system. OK, in SH3 there are default measurements, AOB 0, Range 0, speed 0. In SH4, the default measurements are AOB 0, Range 3000 (IIRC, but anyway, not 0), speed 0 With both systems you can input all your data using the tools provided and send to TDC, or you can go to the TDC page and manually input But with SH3 you could manually input speed into the TDC, and if you only send updated AOB and range data from the notepad, then this will not affect your speed input. This is very important, since few manual targeters regularly use the speed measuring equipment available from the notepad. However with SH4 this is not possible because to send data from the notepad will reset the TDC speed to whatever the default is.. Therefore you cannot set speed using the TDC, and update the range and AOB solution using the notepad and stadimeter, without also going back to the TDC and changing the speed setting, wasting valuable seconds before firing. Please correct me if i'm wrong here. __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

11-01-08, 02:01 PM	#4
Mattman[CDN] Swabbie Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Hamilton ,Ontario, Canada Posts: 12 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	I agree with all three above , is there a Mod that can make the settings available again in the attack scope? __________________ Last edited by Mattman[CDN]; 11-01-08 at 04:39 PM.

11-02-08, 04:10 AM	#6
Hitman Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 6,099 Downloads: 109 Uploads: 2	I have never used it, even in SH3. Found long ago that collecting data with external tools and printed tables (For distance) is way faster and more accurate. IMO we should use the slot in the menu.ini to eliminate the notepad and replace it with something more useful, like a wiz-wheel or such. The big pity is that now that we have a proper double-image stadimeter it becomes unusable How I wish they had left the same system as with the US interface, where you can input directly your heigth estimate and hence take as reference point mast, funnel, bridge or whatever you prefer. Browsing the recognition manual for a match before you can make a measurement is PITA __________________ One day I will return to sea ...

11-03-08, 07:22 AM	#9
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	OMG that's brilliant! I love it! :rotfl: But i think this discussion could be a starting point for a periscope interface overhaul discussion I for one would certainly be willing to start modding the interface, but what would be a better setup? __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill Last edited by joegrundman; 11-03-08 at 07:23 AM.

12-15-08, 08:46 PM	#13
XLjedi Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Palm Beach, Florida Posts: 1,200 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 8	For the Uboats in SH4 I do the same thing I did in SH3... totally ignore the notepad. I set the TDC inputs using the TDC dials on the attack map. A feature that is noticeably absent from the attack map for the US fleetboats! The real question is... Why are there no adjustable position keeper dials available on the attack map for the US boats??? __________________

10-25-08, 09:29 AM	#2
MH Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 3,184 Downloads: 248 Uploads: 0	I hate that system too and it a reason i dont play u-boats in sh4.Its a mess. Would be much better to have (somehow)the system of data input copied from fleet boats.Without the automatic PK ,just the dials on right side.

10-31-08, 07:26 PM	#3
gutted The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New Orleans, LA. Posts: 1,353 Downloads: 470 Uploads: 10	i too hate how if you hit the X button to clear out the notepad.. it also clears out everything in your TDC dials. i like to set my speed manually like you. sometimes i use the notepad to input AOB.. sometimes i use the TDC dials. in any case..after i had the speed and AOB set i would hit the X button to clear out the notepad.. and then start using the notepad to keep JUST my range TDC dial updated. but that feature is gone now. booooo!

11-01-08, 03:42 PM	#5
Frederf Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 665 Downloads: 79 Uploads: 1	Just a couple days ago I tried 1.5 UB-ATO and found the way they do TDC entry to be completely unusable for the reasons listed above. I really wish that instead of they hokey "helping hand" automated speed gathering method they force on you, they would instead give a way just to call out timestamped bearing/ranges that are put onto the attack/nav map and let you figure out course and speed from that. It would be a lot more realistic and flexible.

11-03-08, 11:11 AM	#10
MH Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 3,184 Downloads: 248 Uploads: 0	For a start it would be great just to have TDC fleet boat dials with changed "uboatish" look nothing more. The ultimate would be OLC style interface. As for now the only way to play that makes sense is with automatic targeting.

11-03-08, 01:39 PM	#11
Frederf Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 665 Downloads: 79 Uploads: 1	There's a middle ground where the targetting officer fills in the blanks yes? That's at least in between manual and auto targeting.

07-25-09, 01:07 PM	#14
green_abobo Sparky Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: running silent 700 meters off your starboard bow.. Posts: 151 Downloads: 50 Uploads: 0	all i use the notepad for is preliminary checks for speed,bearing,and range. when they get within 3000 meters,i use the battlemap controls to fine-tune last minute changes in the target's bearing. i find it easier to work with,and it makes the sub semi-auto with the salvo controls. ug, i take it back. not as easy as previouly realized. lol. __________________ Last edited by green_abobo; 07-28-09 at 01:33 AM.