TANK VS TANK: Tiger vs. Panther

[Sledgehammer427]

My first discussion/debate thread is going to be one country's tank versus another.
In this case, the Tiger I versus the Panther.

Here's my idea. every tank is as-is, no modifications other than ones that were actually made during the war.

I am a fan of the Tiger, more than the Panther. My type of fighting prefers it. I've always been a fan of long-armed fighting machines, and I like more hitting power and armor than being thin skinned and fast. While both had their problems, it seems the Panther ended up going through more teething problems than the Tiger did.

Opinions, arguments?

[ZeeWolf]

I'm with you sledge, the Tiger E1 is my favorite tank. The technology is old
school compared to the Panther but just consider this interesting fact;
Put in service in the summer of 42 and fought in the most fierce battles in history and still a potent fighting machine until the very end. And on top of that only 1356 produced. Wow!

[frinik]

Distinguished gentlement I beg to disagree with both of you.While the Tiger I was an evolutionary cul-de-sac the Panther was a much better tank whose design inspired the Main Battle Tank(MBT) of modern times.

Unlike the TIger I or II which were never used by the Allies or the Soviets, captured Panthers were used by the Soviets and for a Soviet tanker getting a captured Panther was considered to be a reward.Een the British and Americans used a limited number of captured Panthers.After the War the French army equipped some of its armoured regiments with a good number of Panther s that remained in service until 1950.The Panther 75 mm KwK42 L70 was copied by the French in the 1950s and even used by the Israelis to upgun their Shermans.
The Soviets gave a number of captured panthers to their vassals ; Rumanians, Bulgarinas etc after the war.They remained in service until the late 1940s. The Israelis in 1947 enquired whether they could acquire soem Panthers in order to fight their war of independence against the Arabs.

Let s look at the basic facts:

1) weight the Panther weighs 45 metric tons i.e 11 to 12 ton lighter thna the Tiger I.An important factor for a country desperately short of fuel like Germany

2) Mobility; the Panther was faster, better powered in terms of engine vs weight than the Tiger.It has better cross country mobility as well.

3) Firepower; the Kwk42 of the Panther had a muzzle velocity of 930 metre per second versus only 773 to 810 m per s for the Kwk39 L56 of the Tiger.Thus the Panther s gun was second only to the Kwk43 L71 of the Tiger II and Jagdpanther in terms of punch.

4) Production; only 1400 Tigers were produced versus nearly 6000 Panthers which gives the Panther a much greater importance to the German war effort.

5)Armour; the Panther s armour was sloped which gave it better protection than the straight and angular armour of the Tiger I.

6)Combat range; the Panther was able with full tanks to travel 270 kms versus 180 for the Tiger.It was less prone to breakdowns, required less maintenace and less fuel than the Tiger I or II.According to stats only 30% of Tiger Is and 20% of Tiger II were destroyed in acual combat the rest were destroyed by their crews to avoid capture because they were too heavy to tow and too difficult to repair.Whereas a full 60% of the Panthers were destroyed on the battlefiled with 30% only being destroyed by their crews.

7) teething problems; yes the Panther had more teething problems than the Tiger I because it was rushed into production with insufficent testing at Hitler s insistence.However once the problems were solved by late 1943 it was avery reliable tank praised even by the Soviets who found it easier to maintain then the captured Tigers.The Tiger I because of it s huge wieght required more maintenance to avoid breakdowns and could not travel long distances because of its tendency .In the manuals the Soviets told their crews to use the Tiger , if possible, until ti broke down and just ditch it whereas they would tell their crews to carefully maintain capptured Panthers in order to used them as long as possible, To me this is best homage they could pay to what was the best tank of WWII T34 lovers notwithstanding.

I agree that on one point the psychological factor the Tiger I had the upper hand; the fear and awe it inspired amongst Allies and Soviet tank crews.Becaue of it s sheer size and weight which the more elegant panther could not match.

Gentlemen I rest my case!

Cheers

[Sledgehammer427]

Wow frinik. I had to read that a couple times

While I'm not yet a Panther convert, it did spawn the Jagdpanther, which, next to the Maus, is my favorite tank.

I hold a preference for things that aren't user-friendly. I love flying the Gee-Bee and the F-104 starfighter in flight sims, I helped build the Narwhal for SH4, so naturally, I go for the larger, more cumbersome tanks.

In the right hands (like mine ) even the worst tank in the world is a formidable fighting machine. I like fighting in the Tiger, I feel safer, and rather unstoppable. the way I do things though, I learned myself to get the best tactical grasp on the situation before any action, I can fight a Tiger in close quarters, against many opponent tanks. I've many a scrap with 3-4 t-34s in the woods.
I prefer a challenge, and while I know the Panther has its downfalls, its far more user-friendly than the Tiger. I like to fight for my victories. but I'm a simmer in 2011, I appreciate that the panther was a much better tank for those who fought in WWII, but this is a debate and my opinion stands!

[frinik]

OK Sledge I just thought we were comparing the various merits or pros and cons of both tanks.

If we are talking sims or games then it's a different story! Still even in sims I'd rather fight in a Panther although I don't dislike the Tiger I. Likewise for me too the Jagdpanther is my favourite Jagdpanzer(SPG) although I must admit the Stugs III G and IV, the Hetzer and Jagdpanzer IV L48 and L70 are also enjoyable SPGs.P vs T

[Lieste]

The design of the Panther armour is for 'immunity' to frontal fire (arguably successful with the Glacis on introduction, but the turret front/mantlet design was weaker than it could have been).

The hull was supposed to be 'aimed' directly at the enemy positions, with slope providing the protection. The side hull was only to keep out very oblique fire from the front.

The Tiger had thicker, but unsloped (more-or-less) armour that required the driver to position the threat onto the forward quarters (the armour was penetrable if struck directly at fairly long ranges). The all-round protection averaged rather better than the Panther, but frontal protection was not quite as good - huge overmatching calibres and reducing quality control for the later war production may have eroded this somewhat by war's end.

Both tanks were bigger and heavier than they should have been - a rear drive/transmission would have lowered the hull, possibly shortened it, and would have made maintaining the drivetrain of the Panther a lot easier. Either the lowered bulk could have been used to reduce overall weight, improving further the good trafficability of both tanks or it could have allowed some improvement to side protection on the Panther...

The Panther is far more important though - replacing PzIV and Pz III vehicles on a 1:1 basis rather than as insignificant numbers of heavy tanks thrown into increasingly desperate (though surprisingly successful) 'limited' offensives and rear-guard actions.

The Panther is far closer to all the 'modern' tanks than the Tiger - it just needs some improvements and a bit of a diet to make it better... I might go with keeping the armour the same, but making it as small/smaller than a PzIV, rather than trying for a mini-Tiger Ausf B... but I think we know that this what would have happened to it if they had made a rear transmission version.

[frinik]

I qgree with you Lieste there's no question in my mind that modern MBTs were designed with the Panther in mind.

One adavantqge the TIger I had is the quality of the steel used for it's manufacturing as Tiger I production wound up essentially by summer 1944 when Germany faced critical shortagees of supplies of crucial alloys like tungsten(wolfram) and manganese.This impacted production of the late Panther ausf G models with more brittle steeland spalling-prone armour.