[REL] FOTRS Ultimate Project

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by G Man

I did the test again. FOTRSU Tench class January 1945. I couldn't get the battery below 2% and the speed stayed at 1 knot. When I surfaced I went to ahead standard and it took 42 hours 8 minutes to recharge the battery to 100%.

Your experience at 2% is what I had. It didn't take me that long to fully charge though... hmmm... how long did it take you to get to like 95%, did you notice?

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by torpedobait

The "T" key turns off the SD radar only; I have to go to the SJ radar to turn it off manually. Using the T key to turn both on, as the note says, does not always turn on both radars. That seems confusing, and I wonder if it is the result of repeat using the T key? Repeating using the T key to turn off the radars (both, according to the message posted) results on only the SD going off; still have to turn off the SJ manually.

As the "Help" page states:

The "T" key toggles power for the SD Radar.
The "Ctrl+T" key toggles power for the SJ Radar




The "T" key alone does not turn on/off both Radars in a single key stroke.

In the above image, you'll notice the "HUD" Button menu is highlighting the "Radar" page (the Radar icon is yellow, while the others are red). The two buttons that are lighted are for the "SJ Power On/Off" and the "Continuous Sweep" button.....meaning the SJ Radar is operational, and continuously sweeping for targets. The SJ provides both surface and air detection and its detected objects are seen on either the A-Scope or PPI Radar screens. The SJ will turn off automatically if you submerge below the waterline with the antenna. So, in order for it to work you need to either be surfaced, or at least have the antenna above the waterline, and have the unit turned "on" (by using one of several ways of doing so....The HUD Toggle Button; the "Ctrl+T" keystroke; a mouse click on the PPI or A-Scope units on/off toggle switch).

To turn on/off the SD Radar, you can use the "T" keystroke, or the HUD Radar Button on the far right labeled "SD Power On/Off":



As the above image shows, every time you toggle the SD Radar on/off, the Chief Engineer will report its status. However unlike the SJ Radar, the SD Radar button can not be highlighted to show if its on or not....it will stay un lighted no matter what its state, as the above image shows. You need to read the message text as to whether the SD Radar is on or off.

As the following "mouse over" information states, the two buttons work different radar devices.....The SJ which is only displayed on the A-Scope and PPI screens////And the SD Radar which is displayed on the Navigation Map.

I noticed that when I turn them to "ON" via the T key, air contacts show up, but surface contacts do not. If I look at the two screens at the radar station, both screens are dark. Turning on the SJ radar starts the display, but the SD remains dark. If I then turn off the SJ so that both are dark and go to the SD screen, turning it on turns on BOTH SD and SJ (both screens are lit, and targets show up on the F5 display

I believe you're confused on the function of the SD compared to the SJ. The Stock game only displayed the Air Search SD on the Navigation Map (the F5 key). They only permitted air contacts to show up on the map.....not the two SJ Surface Search screens (A-Scope, PPI Screens). I have the SJ also picking up air targets because.....that's what they did....picked up both air and surface targets. You'll notice both A-Scope and PPI work together....in other words when you turn off one, the other turns off too and they both display the same detected contacts, just in different ways. Why? Because the SJ Radar is displayed on these two units ONLY. The developers didn't construct the radar as it should have been and we can't do a thing about it! The SD SHOULD have been displayed on the A-Scope screen and not the Navigation Map! The SJ SHOULD have been displayed on the PPI making for a difference between the two displayed units.....but it's not and it never will unless you get UbiSoft to provide a sixth patch for say 50 bucks to correct their stupidity.....and ours for paying for it!

When you say.... "If I look at the two screens at the radar station, both screens are dark. Turning on the SJ radar starts the display, but the SD remains dark". This tells me you think one display is for the SJ while the other is for the SD.....they are not. Both A-Scope and PPI screens are for the SJ Surface Search Radar. The Navigation Map for the SD never turns dark.

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by torpedobait

In the aforementioned GAR class boat, in September 1942 I had both the SD-1 Improved radar and the SJ-1 Improved. But when I upgraded to USS Balao in mid-October 1942 I had no SJ radar; only the SD-1 Improved. It took two more patrols before I was offered the SJ, and it was the -1 Improved version. Seems odd that it was available for a GAR class boat sailing out of Brisbane in September, but not on a more advanced Balao boat at Mare (Treasure Island, actually) a month or more later. I got it for my second patrol out of Pearl in December 1942. No biggie, just odd. Is that one of those variable mods that comes when the game decides?

Ok, I'm really confused now. There's no way you should be getting a Balao mid October 1942?

In Ultimate the Balao doesn't even come into existence until Feb. 4, 1943 (as it's .upc file shows):

[UserPlayerUnit 1]
ID=Balao
NameDisplayable=Balao
UnitName= USS Balao
Type=Balao
UpgradeClass=3
UnitInterval= 1943-02-04, 1963-07-11
ExternalClassName=SSBalao

I don't understand how you could have gotten an upgrade to a sub that's not even able to be displayed in 1942??

I'm willing to quibble over the dates to the "SJ-1 Improved" and its "offer" of purchase as an upgrade (how much and when), but this Balao in 1942 isn't something that should have happened.

[s7rikeback]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

Ok, I'm really confused now. There's no way you should be getting a Balao mid October 1942?

In Ultimate the Balao doesn't even come into existence until Feb. 4, 1943 (as it's .upc file shows):

[UserPlayerUnit 1]
ID=Balao
NameDisplayable=Balao
UnitName= USS Balao
Type=Balao
UpgradeClass=3
UnitInterval= 1943-02-04, 1963-07-11
ExternalClassName=SSBalao

I don't understand how you could have gotten an upgrade to a sub that's not even able to be displayed in 1942??

I'm willing to quibble over the dates to the "SJ-1 Improved" and its "offer" of purchase as an upgrade (how much and when), but this Balao in 1942 isn't something that should have happened.

Capn, would the space that has been inserted after the = sign have any bearing on this.


Perhaps it Should read:
UnitInterval=1943-02-04, 1963-07-11 (no space)



We are seeing a lot of issues with spaces in the wrong places, or too many , or to few etc..

[torpedobait]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

Ok, I'm really confused now. There's no way you should be getting a Balao mid October 1942?

In Ultimate the Balao doesn't even come into existence until Feb. 4, 1943 (as it's .upc file shows):

[UserPlayerUnit 1]
ID=Balao
NameDisplayable=Balao
UnitName= USS Balao
Type=Balao
UpgradeClass=3
UnitInterval= 1943-02-04, 1963-07-11
ExternalClassName=SSBalao

I don't understand how you could have gotten an upgrade to a sub that's not even able to be displayed in 1942??

I'm willing to quibble over the dates to the "SJ-1 Improved" and its "offer" of purchase as an upgrade (how much and when), but this Balao in 1942 isn't something that should have happened.

I just opened the game and loaded a Save Game I named "42-09-08 TRANSFER TO BRISBANE". That was still in the GAR Class boat, and the calendar in the Office, where the save was taken and where it opens upon loading, shows the September 08, 1942 date. We subsequently made one patrol out of Brisbane (to the Carolines), after which I was given the option to take a "Shiny new boat", which I accepted. I then opened my next Save Game, which was taken immediately after I accepted the "shiny new boat" . That Save Game starts in the office at Mare Island (actually, Treasure Island) CA. That boat is the USS Balao, and the date on the office calendar is October 29, 1942.

BTW, another small item: The boat designation omits the (SS-285) from the title text, whereas all other boats show the SS designation on the Crew Status page or boat picture page (whatever). I went out to Wikipedia's List of US Navy Ships to find the SS-285 designation for Balao.

As for the radar, you are correct about my assumption on the two displays. I did assume the larger scope on the left to be strictly the SJ radar and the other (PPI) to be strictly for air targets. I've adjusted my thinking accordingly. And I did disremember the post that explained the new SD On/Off switch. Experimentation showed me later that the CTL-T combo turns on or off both displays, and when they are off the targets no longer show on the F5 map or, of course, on the scope displays either. The T key by itself generates the same SD/SJ On/Off messages, but frankly I've never noticed that it actually did turn off the radars. If I press it and get the SD/SJ Off message, both scopes appear to still be active, and targets do not disappear from the F5 map. But as I said, using the CTL-T function does the job all the way around, as far as I can tell anyway.

I didn't mind getting the Balao boat so early, but I did expect the next boat in succession would be a Gato class. BTW, in multiple careers, whether in TMO, TMO-RSRDC, the original FOTARS, or FOTARS Ultimate, I've never, ever been given a Tench class boat. Either I've been a victim of random selection (anti-selection?), there is a syntax error in the files, or there is some level of achievement yet to be reached. Are there specific criteria for moving up to a Tench, or is it strictly random and I haven't hit it? Just curious!

Thanks for taking the time to look into my "issues". I appreciate your diligence, time and effort on behalf of us fellow simmers.

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by s7rikeback

Capn, would the space that has been inserted after the = sign have any bearing on this.


Perhaps it Should read:
UnitInterval=1943-02-04, 1963-07-11 (no space)



We are seeing a lot of issues with spaces in the wrong places, or too many , or to few etc..

I don't think the "space" has anything to do with the UnitInterval line entry, at least not as the Stock game does things.....the player subs are ALL using a single "space" between the "=" and the beginning date. I think we need to follow the Stock games way of doing things whenever its listed as such. Which by the way, both Ultimate and the Stock game use the same UnitInterval dates. So, you've got a "good eye" S7rikeback for detail, but I don't think it matters in this situation.

[propbeanie]

I'll look in the CareerStart and Flotillas files. I'm suspecting another bad date in there for availability...

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by torpedobait

I just opened the game and loaded a Save Game I named "42-09-08 TRANSFER TO BRISBANE". That was still in the GAR Class boat, and the calendar in the Office, where the save was taken and where it opens upon loading, shows the September 08, 1942 date. We subsequently made one patrol out of Brisbane (to the Carolines), after which I was given the option to take a "Shiny new boat", which I accepted. I then opened my next Save Game, which was taken immediately after I accepted the "shiny new boat" . That Save Game starts in the office at Mare Island (actually, Treasure Island) CA. That boat is the USS Balao, and the date on the office calendar is October 29, 1942.

BTW, another small item: The boat designation omits the (SS-285) from the title text, whereas all other boats show the SS designation on the Crew Status page or boat picture page (whatever). I went out to Wikipedia's List of US Navy Ships to find the SS-285 designation for Balao.

As for the radar, you are correct about my assumption on the two displays. I did assume the larger scope on the left to be strictly the SJ radar and the other (PPI) to be strictly for air targets. I've adjusted my thinking accordingly. And I did disremember the post that explained the new SD On/Off switch. Experimentation showed me later that the CTL-T combo turns on or off both displays, and when they are off the targets no longer show on the F5 map or, of course, on the scope displays either. The T key by itself generates the same SD/SJ On/Off messages, but frankly I've never noticed that it actually did turn off the radars. If I press it and get the SD/SJ Off message, both scopes appear to still be active, and targets do not disappear from the F5 map. But as I said, using the CTL-T function does the job all the way around, as far as I can tell anyway.

I didn't mind getting the Balao boat so early, but I did expect the next boat in succession would be a Gato class. BTW, in multiple careers, whether in TMO, TMO-RSRDC, the original FOTARS, or FOTARS Ultimate, I've never, ever been given a Tench class boat. Either I've been a victim of random selection (anti-selection?), there is a syntax error in the files, or there is some level of achievement yet to be reached. Are there specific criteria for moving up to a Tench, or is it strictly random and I haven't hit it? Just curious!

Thanks for taking the time to look into my "issues". I appreciate your diligence, time and effort on behalf of us fellow simmers.

As a general rule, I think the idea of going from a war patrol Sub Base like Brisbane Australia, then getting a "new" boat from mainland California is ridiculous. That shouldn't happen at all....not to mention the idea the Balao is the sub your getting as early as fall of 1942?!? The whole idea is wacky!! It shouldn't be like this.

Mare Island was added through FOTRS (it's not a Stock game flotilla base) and there in lies the "rub". We're dealing with someone else's ideas, that don't add up to good game play. This has been a problem for some time with what we find in FOTRS, and we're still dealing with issues that don't add up. Propbeanie is our Campaign Mission expert, but he's loaded with work from trying to make sense of the FOTRS Campaign files.....this is just another one of them. Don't be surprised to find Mare Island upgrades pulled from the final product of Ultimate....it's just not worth the effort to work with someone else's mistakes.

[propbeanie]

This is why I was wanting to change getting a "new" boat to be tied with the current boat you're on being "transferred" in for overhaul, which usually happened in real life after a few patrols. I'm going to say though that torpedobait has mod soup in this instance. The Balao is "defiined" in the Flotillas.upc file as not being available anywhere in the game until 1943-03-01. If you are in the SoWesPac, then that would be 1943-06-01. In the Sea Trials, you can start in 1943-02-14, but you're not actually "fit for duty" until after getting through the six weeks of trial missions... In CareerStart.upc, the boat is not available until the June 5, 1943 start...

I do not see how the boat would be given, unless it's something buried in one of the UPCUnitsData files, or has been edited in, or is leftovers from a previous mod... Any of those could also explain strange radar behavior.

btw, the Mare Island set-up came from TMO v1.7.

I have heard of similar experiences in my ModSoljanka. It was DicheBach who had voiced this - read from post#108 of my thread:

Originally Posted by DicheBach

...
That patrol netted me a new Balao class sub (nice to get in summer 1942 )

[torpedobait]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

This is why I was wanting to change getting a "new" boat to be tied with the current boat you're on being "transferred" in for overhaul, which usually happened in real life after a few patrols. I'm going to say though that torpedobait has mod soup in this instance. The Balao is "defiined" in the Flotillas.upc file as not being available anywhere in the game until 1943-03-01. If you are in the SoWesPac, then that would be 1943-06-01. In the Sea Trials, you can start in 1943-02-14, but you're not actually "fit for duty" until after getting through the six weeks of trial missions... In CareerStart.upc, the boat is not available until the June 5, 1943 start...

I do not see how the boat would be given, unless it's something buried in one of the UPCUnitsData files, or has been edited in, or is leftovers from a previous mod... Any of those could also explain strange radar behavior.

btw, the Mare Island set-up came from TMO v1.7.

Could the offer for a Balao have anything to do with an accumulated tonnage figure? Or a number of completed and successful patrols? It seems like in TMO three "good" patrols was enough to get a new boat, but the progression was more in line with upgraded boats, not a jump over classes - usually from whatever up to GAR, then GATO then BALAO (but as I said, not up to TENCH, at least for me). In FOTARSU it takes five or six successful patrols to get the first boat class upgrade. Just wondering if there is a connection, meaning that changes were made in FOTARSU to make it take longer to get a new boat, and that something in those changes skewed the BALAO availability.

As an old programmer myself (Assembler & COBOL, mainly) I know how easy it is to think that my code was right - the eye sees what it wants to see - yet a fresh pair of eyes would reveal a slight or even glaring error. Not saying that is the case here, but clearly the sim is not acting according to expectations. I regret not having the current skill set needed to dig into this for you.

Compared to other aspects of the mod development, this is a pretty small issue. By reporting it I'm not complaining, just trying to get anomalies onto the "fix" list for "someone, someday".

I don't think that this is related to a mod soup in my game. I started a new career after deleting all previous saves (actually, I always delete the entire "SH4" folder and its subfolders) before starting a new career. Unless there is some residual elsewhere in the game files, it should be clean. Otherwise, what you are saying is that to start a new career with the expectation of being on an exact, equal footing with previous careers, you have to reload the game from a pristine edition. I can do that, but it shouldn't be necessary. I do run 3 environmental mods, as I've said before:
1. FOTARSU Unmark Removal (to eliminate the surface sub marker);
2. Lite Fog v2 + 300' Underwater visibility (so I can see targets at about 400 yards in the rain and dark);
3. Webster's Stop the Shouting (Drives me nuts to have a screaming crew if there is ANY damage to the boat);

If any of those, which I apply uniformly via JSGME to every game start, has any effect whatsoever on dates or boat availability I'll be shocked. That said, I'm willing to disable them, start a new career from a pristine install, and try to replicate the Balao availability if you think it necessary. But I was having SO much fun!

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by torpedobait

Could the offer for a Balao have anything to do with an accumulated tonnage figure? Or a number of completed and successful patrols? It seems like in TMO three "good" patrols was enough to get a new boat, but the progression was more in line with upgraded boats, not a jump over classes - usually from whatever up to GAR, then GATO then BALAO (but as I said, not up to TENCH, at least for me). In FOTARSU it takes five or six successful patrols to get the first boat class upgrade. Just wondering if there is a connection, meaning that changes were made in FOTARSU to make it take longer to get a new boat, and that something in those changes skewed the BALAO availability.

As an old programmer myself (Assembler & COBOL, mainly) I know how easy it is to think that my code was right - the eye sees what it wants to see - yet a fresh pair of eyes would reveal a slight or even glaring error. Not saying that is the case here, but clearly the sim is not acting according to expectations. I regret not having the current skill set needed to dig into this for you.

Compared to other aspects of the mod development, this is a pretty small issue. By reporting it I'm not complaining, just trying to get anomalies onto the "fix" list for "someone, someday".

I don't think that this is related to a mod soup in my game. I started a new career after deleting all previous saves (actually, I always delete the entire "SH4" folder and its subfolders) before starting a new career. Unless there is some residual elsewhere in the game files, it should be clean. Otherwise, what you are saying is that to start a new career with the expectation of being on an exact, equal footing with previous careers, you have to reload the game from a pristine edition. I can do that, but it shouldn't be necessary. I do run 3 environmental mods, as I've said before:
1. FOTARSU Unmark Removal (to eliminate the surface sub marker);
2. Lite Fog v2 + 300' Underwater visibility (so I can see targets at about 400 yards in the rain and dark);
3. Webster's Stop the Shouting (Drives me nuts to have a screaming crew if there is ANY damage to the boat);

If any of those, which I apply uniformly via JSGME to every game start, has any effect whatsoever on dates or boat availability I'll be shocked. That said, I'm willing to disable them, start a new career from a pristine install, and try to replicate the Balao availability if you think it necessary. But I was having SO much fun!

Originally Posted by propbeanie

... I do not see how the boat would be given, unless it's something buried in one of the UPCUnitsData files, or has been edited in, or is leftovers from a previous mod...

Understood about just wanting to report issues. This is why we are doing 'beta' testing - to find the issues. Rest assured, even if you were complaining, we'd still check it out. CapnScurvy will probably find something - he's sharp like that. When we're doing changes to the mod, just as an example, there are roughly 260 "ships", and each of those has upwards of 24 or more files - this is just the "Sea" folder. Each of those has a corresponding CFG file in the Roster folder for each country, and some ships are represented in every country. Extrapolate that across the mod, and there is no way that a mod team of 4-12 people have the time, much less patience to look in every nook and cranny of the mod. We need "targets" to shoot at, which is what you guys have supplied with your reports. Thanks...

[DLRevan]

Just came back to SH4 after a couple of years, been looking to get my game up to speed on mods.

How is sinking handled in current beta version of the mod?

I am aware that in the stock version of the game, ships are usually "killed" by depletion of hitpoints, followed by sinking.

From this point, from what I understand (correct me if wrong), it's possible to "kill" by flooding, but this usually takes too long with stock values.

A lot of mods like TMO or damage related mods tweak flooding to be faster, so if the player doesn't follow up it's more likely a ship floods and sinks before losing all hitpoints.

Only(?) Natural Sinking mechanics and Real Fleet Boat use a model where ships have no hitpoints at all, and the only way to kill a ship is to force it to sink by flooding.

The mechanic found in NSM and RFB is what I am after. I'm particularly curious about the new ships added. I used NSM for years, but it's not compatible with 1.5 apparently? As for RFB, I notice the model its using doesn't apply to every ship, particularly warships.

I realize in most cases, this usually only affects when the ship destroyed message pops up, but I did like the uncertainty. Also I liked the flood model for not allowing same location hits to sink a ship, or hitting a ship once on either side evening out a ship's list without sinking it due to HP loss. Stuff like that.

[G Man]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Your experience at 2% is what I had. It didn't take me that long to fully charge though... hmmm... how long did it take you to get to like 95%, did you notice?

It took me 39 hours to get to 95% charged from 2% running at ahead standard. Were you in a Tench class?

[propbeanie]

There's some mention a few pages back, and then we've done all of the boats over the course of the last several months. I've got some data, CapnScurvy has other, but I don't know as we've got a "table" of the battery charge data yet. I do know that in a Gato, Balao and Tench that I could not get the gauge to go lower that 2% of battery charge, kind of like an "emergency power to get home on - so long as you can hold your breath long enough... The thing of that 2% is, the longer you run with the battery at 2%, the longer it take to charge it back up. If you surface when the chief says "battery is depleted, which is just after the gauge first reaches the 4% level, then the re-charge doesn't take near as long...

found it:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...98#post2546698

Originally Posted by propbeanie

... Now, I never did get either boat to fully discharge, not for lack of trying. With the Tench, I didn't try very long. With the Gato, I did, hence the difference between the 4% charge, which is where the game states "Battery fully discharged" at 1400, and not surfacing until 0600 hours the next day, and we were still on a 2% charge, boat still doing 2 knots, telegraph still on Ahead Flank...

Charge times for Tench 18 hours to 50%, Gato 18 hours and 45 minutes, which could well be a function of the TC used, and the fact that the Gato battery was taken down to 2% for a much longer period of time than the Tench boat's was. the 75% to 100% figures are Tench at 15 and a half hours, Gato at 14 and a half hours...