A little Tank sim rant...

[Sledgehammer427]

It's too bad tanksims are spread thin like butter, wouldn't it be a little nicer if people would give the games a chance? Steel Fury is one of the best tanksims out there (when it doesn't crash for me) if that game got more marketing (trust me, I know money constraints and the like) there wouldn't be a torrential flood of people dying to get the game, they aren't Crysis or Halo 3, but still, there is probably a larger tanksim fanbase over here in america (who doesn't love drving scorpions on Halo ) but people won't realise it yet until they TRY. My friend Colin resented U-boats until he saw me playing SH3, now, he and I can have intelligible conversations about attacking convoys and the like, because he plays it too.
think of a similar situation. but with tanksims.
one Army tanker comes back from training in Ft. Knox, he buys SBP PE, and he plays it by himself. One day, he invites a friend over and his friend sees him playing SBP PE to keep up with training. WHAM!
his friend just went out and bought SBP. now you got 2, and I'm sure the Tanker has more than one friend, so there you go, more people at least slightly interested in tank simmming. their friends get interested, as do their friends, now you have a few hundred people playing one tanksim. once you play one, you want to play more. Now the tanker's friend has TvT, Steeel Fury, and he found out he played Panzer Commander as a kid.
you can see how this would happen. but more games have to get to more people who like them, plain and simple. I think it's really friggin awesome that these countries in europe are trying to jumpstart the genre (steel fury, tvt, T-72 BoF, etc.) but we need to get our (american) technological might and throw a punch at this tank simming thing... advertise the living hell outta it, hype it up, and release a relatively dynamic, hopeful game (heres where a tom clancy label would come in handy)

EDIT: note to admins, im not sure what position you have on using "that sucked" but I didn't realise my grammar until after I posted the thread. sorry!

[Onkel Neal]

I agree, we need to generate more interest in tanksims. I miss the good ol days of Spearhead, Armored Fist, and Panzer Commander/Elite.

[ReM]

I bet there is some good money to be made for a developer that delivers a well-rounded (modern era) tankgame. Note that I say game, because there is a great sim available already (I don't have to mention it's name do I?). But it comes at too hefty a price and is too much of a sim to attract the masses....

Some time ago I read that Microprose was in some way back in business. Remembering them from many sims I played I hoped that there would be again at least a few good (tank)sims brought to us (like M1 tank platoon 2: I played that game for hours on end during long night watches in the cp during KFOR 1; and the great manual ....sigh).....

Although it is a niche market, there is definitely profit to be made from making good warsims/games. (SH III sales were apparently such that they justified the making of SHIV). Who makes the jump?

But how to generate more interest? Maybe bumper stickers would be a good idea?

[Skybird]

I remember quite clearly that last autumn this forum was brimming with hope and enthusiasm due to the fact of two WWII tank titles were rolling out. But that they both do not have triggered the longevity and lasting interest some may have hoped for, is not a mistake of marketing, since both titles are known, and is not a mistake of the fanbase, but a fault of the shape and quality of the titles: the one obviously unfinished and somewhat broken, the other by design limited in scale and somewhat action-oriented. that the Western publisher went bancrupt, and rumours of that were around since January, didn't help to improve the situation: a bancrupt developer necesserarily lowers expectations for a well-supported game, and puts shadows on any hopes for a healthy and living modding community.

The question also is if today new (young) customers could be won with an eqqivalent title to M1TP2 anymore anyway. They are used to different stuff than we older ones that we remember the golden age of MicroProse and the very first M1TP.

At the same time, SBP may have a dedicated, long-living community and splendid support, but it's higher price tag scares away quite some potential customers nevertheless. That after three years I still cannot mention one name who regretted to have spend the money, does not chnage the fact that initially many people raise their eyebrows when seeing the price. Also, the general gaming community seem to have a stronger interest in WWII tanks as a game theme than modern tanks of the present. at least it seems to me to be like that.

As I see it, there are two titles available worth to be considered, if your interest matches their content. Steel Fury for WWII-interested people satisfied with small scale battles and not too much tactical complexity and straight shooter-like action, and SBP for modern tank sympathisers willing to work themselves into benchmark realism and quite some tactical complexity. If you match any of these two groups, then you can find satisfaction for 30 euros (expect the price for SF to be falling) or roughly 90 euros (dollar-price non-changing) for SBP.

So, honestly said I don't see that much problem with the tank genre there. Right now if you want to play around with historic or modern tanks, you can. And SF2 was announced to be planned by the developer, so there is at least a chance that for the WWII-buffs things will further improve in 1-2 years or so. I admit that modern tankers are better off with the one option they have, but hey, I cannot help it, that's the way the current situation is like.

I recommend to seek contact to the developers and tell them your desires regarding their new titles.

[ReM]

You can't be serious Skybird. You say that there is plenty to choose regarding modern tank warfare because SBPPE is available.

I know you like it very much (and I do to; awaiting delivery of 2.460 myself), but in all honesty: it is not a game and should not be advertised as being one.

Imagine a tank sim/game like this where you could play the following factions in (dynamic) campaigns.

1) US
2) Iraq
3) Russia
4) UK
5) other NATO/Israel
6) other Warsaw-pact/OPFOR

Campaigns set in Middle East, hypothetical WWIII in different theaters and an easy to use editor/modding tool to keep the game alive for a longer time. Multiplayer gaming as well. Being able to play both sides.....

All this to come with state-of-the-art graphics, eye candy and being a little more forgiving than SBPPE.

That is what I would call a game and that was what i was thinking about while posting. I am sure that new (young) customers would buy it. SBPPE is certainly not a game and should not be mentioned as an option in a discussion like this IMHO. (Sure hope I find the update on my doorstep when I get home after work by the way)

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by ReM

You can't be serious Skybird. You say that there is plenty to choose regarding modern tank warfare because SBPPE is available.

I have neither put it that way, nor meant it that way. But i think SBP allows the modelling of many different theatres. the only "real" limitations is the diversity of the vehicle park. However, the fully modelled tanks and IFVs are full packages in themselves. Mind you that the CV9040 came with a manual as thick as that for the rest of the sim.

I know you like it very much (and I do to; awaiting delivery of 2.460 myself), but in all honesty: it is not a game and should not be advertised as being one.

Strange that you accuse me for promoting it as a game when just some time ago I was attacked for comparing it with a game. I am the last to say it is a game developement, it is not. shape and content of the sim is decided by the orders of their military customers. you either like that package and content, or you don't. But a saying in future content you do not really have has a private customer.

I also claim to handle the various titles in this forum neutrally, and equal. For example when setting up the SBP video thread, I also stickied two more for the other tank games, and invited people to contribute to them. If the interest is not there to do so, I cannot help it.

Imagine a tank sim/game like this where you could play the following factions in (dynamic) campaigns.

1) US
2) Iraq
3) Russia
4) UK
5) other NATO/Israel
6) other Warsaw-pact/OPFOR

Nice and well, but are you aware how much of that already can be modelled with what you actually already have? quite some, I would say. Beyond the obvious content, you can make reasonable approximations by using different ammo loadouts. Or my favourite example, repeatedly told now: use Leopard-1s, deactivate laser, lead, turret, thermals, stick to GAS and load older, weaker rounds only. Battles resulting from that beat any WWII tank game there is in realism and hectic. It's a real drama.

And would it make that much a difference for the SBP gameplay if you really would have a Challenger-2 and a Warrior to choose? would it be that terribly different from playing with a Leopard-2 and CV-90 or Pizarro? Differences in detail, but in principle, the mission gameplay would be exactly the same. What would make a difference is comparing a good versus a bad AI, both in micromanagement for the individual unit, and mission handling.

However, although I have sympathy for the concept of dynamic campaigns (ahhhh, Falcon...), you will never have an AI in the forseeable future able to generate a mission plan of as tactical splendour as you get when a human mission designer is developing it. I personally would not want to trade the possible AI surprises I get in SBP for dynamic campaigns anymore. That'S why M1TP2 does not attract me anymore today, no matter how fascinating it was back in it'S time. And you can't get both, you have to emphasize the one or the other: dynmiac mission generating, or better mission AI and better OpFor planning. However, the options for randomising mission setups in SBP can work wonders, if competently used.

Campaigns set in Middle East, hypothetical WWIII in different theaters

There are many (several dozen) digital maps from around the globe which are delivered with the sim. Some of them are so huge that you can play a dozen missions on them without seeing one location twice. More can be created - and are developed by modders right now.

and an easy to use editor/modding tool to keep the game alive for a longer time. Multiplayer gaming as well. Being able to play both sides.....

You can change skins and sounds. That armour models and vehicles cannot be added, I praise them for, for it secures that the armour and weapon values are as close to reality as possible. We do not want the online game being messed up by fantasy uber-tanks. Let'S leave this finetuning to the experts - and many of them are already working for or in close coordination with eSim anyway.

I defended the forbidding of modding core data of a sim already with regard to the soaring simulation of Condor. And I stick to this principle.

Multiplayer is possible. Or more precise: it is said to be a blast! Solid, and intense.

I think they said you can play scenarios from both sides, somehow from the editor, I think. Ask in their main forum, I'm quite confident you can play both sides.

All this to come with state-of-the-art graphics, eye candy and being a little more forgiving than SBPPE.

Haven't you just accused me of saying SBP is a "game", something like that? Although SBP lacks in visual detials any eye candy, it nevertheless creates some of the best visual impressions of a landscape with long viewing distances (4.5 km maximum) on the market today.

That is what I would call a game and that was what i was thinking about while posting. I am sure that new (young) customers would buy it. SBPPE is certainly not a game and should not be mentioned as an option in a discussion like this IMHO. (Sure hope I find the update on my doorstep when I get home after work by the way)

SBP was not planned as a game for game market, nevertheless it can be used like a game, and novices and non-professionals can have (and do have!) as much fun with it as gamers have with any other of their favourite games. the lethality of shot exchanges compares to those to be found in ArmA or Flashpoint (thinking of the infantry exclusively). And there, nobody really complained about that feature, too. As Ssnake ones put it when I asked him: they do not consider the PE version to be a "civil product", it's just that they do not stop the civil public from buying it.

when there was this heavy dispute about Steel Fury, some people very angrily attacked me for making a difference between SF and SBP, saying that I rated SF as a game and SBP as a sim, and that I think SF was a good game but a not convincing sim, for the reasons I listed back then. Now you tell me I see SBP as a game. Makes me feel a bit confused.

I really cannot see your problem here. And I stick to my remark on doubting that M1TP2-equivalents from today necessarily would attract as much attention anymore today than the title did back in it's time. Because the expectations have changed, and much of what caused "Ahhh's!" and "Ohhh's!" back then is seen pretty much as normality today, or general interest, maybe even has shifted in general.

As a conclusion, I still think there is not so much a problem on the tank market. WW2-fans can play the tank game you desire with SF, maybe SF2 in the future, and this wargame the developer is releasing first, check this forum, it is mentioned in one or two threads. Modern tank fans can have gaming fun as well as simulation fun with SBP, and SBP-2 still officially planned for an uncertain time in the distant future. - It could be much worse. For example before Spring 2006 - then there was zero WWII or modern tank sim available that reflected the possibility of modern computergame technology, and people were left stranded with old stuff developed in the 90s.

[ReM]

No time to argue further Skybird: 2.460 is here.........

[Skybird]

Enjoy. Some goodies in there.

[Blacklight]

The video game industry isn't about "chances" any more. If they can't bring in the 12-25 year old market, most companies aren't even going to consider it because that where the money is.

That demographic really doesn't get into hardcore sims and the demographic older than that mostly don't use the computer for games (which is slowly changing).

Then there's stuff like Steel Beasts Pro PE, which is fantastic but the price tag is rediculous.

[Lieste]

Originally Posted by Blacklight

Then there's stuff like Steel Beasts Pro PE, which is fantastic but the price tag is rediculous.

Sure is...
Lets see, a serious training tool for only $125 including shipping. Outrageous

It will outlast most other sim-games, so the seat price is not at all bad IMO.

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by Blacklight

The video game industry isn't about "chances" any more. If they can't bring in the 12-25 year old market, most companies aren't even going to consider it because that where the money is.

I believe that people who used to play a lot in their 12-25 will continue to do so when they grow far older than that. it is a habit you will never learn to dislike. The only thing that will prevent the older people from playing are real life time constrains.

So I see the average player age growing older, with time. Also the older player might naturally look for bigger challenges. This is the chance for the real sims imo.

[Skybird]

Lieste, Blacklight,


I see the price tag of SBP like this:

It costs around 90 Euros (125 dollars), at current exchange rate.

A new release by let'S say Codemaster or Atarai or EA or UBI, costs 49,95 Euros, means: 50 Euros in the shop (Germany).

SBP does not even cost twice the price of an ordinary mainstream game release. However, the probability that it will reside on your HD several times longer than just twice as long as any ordinary for example action game, is very, very high.

So who is the winner here: the guy buying two games for the price of two and leaving them behind sooner or later, or the guy buying one sim for the price of two games, and staying with it for years to come?

BTW, the licence for 10 classroom seats with the military version of SBP, costed 18000 dollars three years ago. But the differences of the military and PE version are only marginal, as far as eSim revealed.

However, cabin-simulators for the military, with which SBP competes by it's aggressive pricing, cost several milions, plus hundreds of thousands per year for maintenance, travelling of training units that rotate in and out, etc, and then the trainee has gotten one or two hours in it, and maybe never again in his career. With SBP, there is the option that he will get several hours per week, and more in private.

As I see it, nobody is paying too much with SBP, neither the military, nor the private customer.

The guy buying Falcon-4 and a Cougar HOTAS for it - invests much more money!

[Lieste]

I was suggesting that $125 is definitely a bargin - hence the rotfl after outrageous...

Quite apart from the code stability, and general ease of use, there is a fascination element - knowing that this is essentially what (at least some smaller European armies) are using to train their serving armour crew.

SB also has benign hardware requirements - your existing machine should handle it fine, (2.4 Ghz P4, Ti6x00 series, 1Gb RAM is coping here).

[porphy]

I'll put in my favorite argument for not finding the pricing of SB Pro PE too high, and that is its second hand value.

I bought it when it was released in 2006 for 125$. I'ts been on my Hdd since. You can sell it second hand today for 90-100$. (one copy was sold on the forums for 99$ about a week ago.) That means this product cost me about 35 dollars over 3 years... hmm that is 12 dollars a year, if I decide to sell it. Heck, if esim decides to put the price higher I might get all my money back in the future!

If you don't like it at all, you can still sell it with no bigger loss than with buying and selling a mainstream game that you dislike. Conclusion: thinking it's overpriced is mostly an illusion. Taking the plunge and buying it leaves you in no worse situation than buying any other game.

What really is overpriced is the crap games that some developers sell in the 40-50 dollar range, which will be in the bargain bin in a few months, and with a big fat zero as second hand value.

cheers Porphy