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Old 01-02-2018, 07:28 AM   #5671
Faith
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I'd like to point out that the removal of the kanji was certainly done before the war broke out, but probably not finished on all vessels. Japan was in a great hurry to start the war before all their oil reserves ran out. With the sheer activity of certains vessels (just look at Kido Butai, working non stop without docking til May 1942), it is not improbable that a few ships still had their names painted on the hull by mid 1942.

With the destroyer division number on the bow, there is definite proof that some of the older destroyers kept it during the early months of the Pacific campaign. There is picture of a Mutsuki class destroyer, Kikutsuki, beached near Tulagi, taken in '43. The ship was damage and beached during the invasion of Tulagi, on May 3rd 1942. It's bow still carries the number 23.
Here it is :



I've always wondered why FOTRS had this little inaccuracy. Maybe the AOTD team chose to keep the names and numbers because it looked better on the ship ?
Then again I have seen this mistake on a number of other games (IL-2, for one).
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Old 01-02-2018, 10:33 AM   #5672
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Yes! The earliest evidence of hull-name removal is this photo, Hibiki (Akatsuki-class) in Dec 1941:



Anyway, from the photo of Ayanami and Shikinami in my last post, it can be inferred that the Hiragana (not Katakana on the side) names astern were always remain.

As for larger ships such as CLs and CAs, they've never been painted Katakanas on their side-hull.
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Old 01-02-2018, 10:44 AM   #5673
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Your info jives with what I've found, and what CapnScurvy has found. I think we'll use your kana images early, and then have most of them stop by mid '42, with a few that might show up later. We'll try to simulate them having been at sea at the start of hostilities, and having the kana removed at their first re-fitting... Sounds plausible... It will not be accurate though, time-wise, because the game doesn't really allow that, unless you use a completely separate 3D model for specific ships (not very efficient). We can mitigate that somewhat using Jeff-Groves' technique, but that'll be a later mod add-in that would go on top of FotRSU (unless someone really wants to crack the whip and do it themselves for inclusion). We might even try an Easter Egg, like Jeff did for me! - I might have to grab me a screenie of that for public display. |;^)

A never-ending stream of questions - I wonder if we could find out, since the Kido Butai (and their submarine support) were a top secret hush-hush kind of mission, if they didn't blank their sides maybe before they left Yokosuka and their other respective home ports? Also, that last pic you have of the two DD stern shots, the Ayanami and the Shikinami, what is the kanji offset on their aft peaks? Did the DD have the emperor's emblem on the bowsprit support, like the Yamato and other larger ships? Did the squadron numbers on the bow "disappear" in conjunction with the side-kana? Did they ever use ship numbers, ala the USN, such as BB-63 USS Missouri? Of course though, here she is in 1944:



... no sign of a number here. Maybe it'd be too easy to identify with just a little spycraft, ruining the camouflage if you can see the "63" on its bow side? ("Ahhh, a US Iowa Class BB, going by the number! Why'd they try to camouflage it? Oh yeah, Rule 1: keep a sailor busy with a paint brush!")... Now, if I was building a diorama, I might really get into the "accuracy" end of things (I did when I did HO railroading, to the point of being anal-retentive - shah! say it isn't so! ), but with SH4 and it's little quirks, it is very difficult to do so... So we'll have to draw a line somewhere, like the Capn has for the Hatsuharu and Shiratsuyu 3D models. We can do some variations, but the game doesn't really allow getting into the weeds too much, and will lead you down an endlessly deep rabbit hole rather quickly...

Edit: Where are you getting all these nice pix?...
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Old 01-02-2018, 12:07 PM   #5674
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I'm not sure if the purpose of removing all the side-names was actually for secrecy. Because most of the capital ships in Kido Budai never have those names on their hull at all. Another possible evidence is that the IJN not only participated war against the US and European Allies since 1941 but also China, and that was even much earlier - since 1937! But throughout their actions in China, those DDs just remained their side-names. For example, this one:


Another thing which I could confirm is that the IJN never gave their ships a "ship number" like the USN and RN did, except some of their old destroyers, which was only given a number without name. (An interesting thing: I just read an article about the lost of Shokaku written by American historians, said that the Shokaku was numbered as "CV-6" by US Navy!) The numbers on bow of IJN DDs were the division numbers which they belonged to. Those numbers frequently changed as the DDs transfered between different Destroyer Divisions.

Text in low right corner: "The 20th Destroyer Division". Obviously the 20 on bow was indicate to the division.

and sometimes they didn't even have it on bow:


After the removal of side-names, at least from all the historical photos I found, the bow-numbers were also permanently removed.

It's interesting that you find the stern Hiragana-names didn't written right on the aft peak! I have no idea at this point, but I could find some photos which indirectly prove this interesting fact:

From the port side you can find a ~corner~ of the stern-name


But from starboard side, there just nothing.


This one is even clearer. Please note there was only 3 Kanas: O-bo-ro. They were obviously written in left-of-center.


This one as well, left-of-center.

It's pretty weird, but they exactly did that! Since that was interesting, I think we could make those stern-names appear in FOTRSU!

And, from photos above you will find that DDs didn't have the Kikumon on bow as larger ships.
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Old 01-02-2018, 12:08 PM   #5675
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As for the coloured photos, see in this website:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/t...-photos.42804/
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Old 01-02-2018, 12:38 PM   #5676
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~Very~ nice find on that site...

That is very interesting that the name on the stern is offset like that. There is an IJN regulation for that somewhere, I'm sure. At the end of the war, they did destroy a lot of records, trying to maintain "secrecy" - hence, us not being able to find documentation sometimes... and I would imagine, any "mistakes" we see in the kana & kanji would probably be a location that was somehow damaged, and took the paint off. I have never looked to see where a grid on a 3D ship model in SH4 shows on the stern... I'll have to go look now!

As for the implementation in FotRSU, we're dealing with a mod (FotRS) that the AOTD team worked on, with AOTD_MadMax as the team leader. As such, I'm sure he had modders that came and went, and probably ended up doing a lot of the work himself, though I do know that Rhonen (sic) was very active in the shipbuilding end of things, and they also borrowed mods from other sources. In the end though, real life dealt AOTD_MadMax several strong blows, such as loss of his job (more than once) and medical issues, so some of the things that they planned for the mod, and had partially implemented, were not completed...
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Old 01-02-2018, 01:07 PM   #5677
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Quote:
I'd like to point out that the removal of the kanji was certainly done before the war broke out, but probably not finished on all vessels.
Quote:
and I would imagine, any "mistakes" we see in the kana & kanji would probably be a location that was somehow damaged, and took the paint off.
Just a small correction for a common misunderstanding: IJN never painted kanji on their ships. Kanji is Chinese characters, which are much more complicated than kana. They were used as official name in documents, but on the hull there were just kanas which indicate the pronunciations.
For instance, Shiratsuyu would be written as 白露 (Kanji) in documents, シラツユ (Katakana) would be painted on the side of hull andしらつゆ (Hiragana) would be astern.

Quote:
As for the implementation in FotRSU, we're dealing with a mod (FotRS) that the AOTD team worked on, with AOTD_MadMax as the team leader. As such, I'm sure he had modders that came and went, and probably ended up doing a lot of the work himself, though I do know that Rhonen (sic) was very active in the shipbuilding end of things, and they also borrowed mods from other sources. In the end though, real life dealt AOTD_MadMax several strong blows, such as loss of his job (more than once) and medical issues, so some of the things that they planned for the mod, and had partially implemented, were not completed...
Oh my god that's so bad......
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Old 01-03-2018, 02:32 AM   #5678
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The removal of the names and division numbers was to avoid US intelligence gaining knowledge about the activities and organisation of Combined Fleet's units. In the war off China, there was no need to hide them, since the Chinese Fleet was at the bottom of the sea by 1937.
American hull numbers are rather small in comparaison, maybe that's why they kept them ?

yyzBegonia, you'll find more digitally colored pictures on the artist's website:
http://blog.livedoor.jp/irootoko_jr/
An amazing artist. I love how he respects the original quality of the photograph.

Also, I'd like to apologize to you for my last post. I seemed pretty rude, and my post was ignoring the info you gave on the names.
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Old 01-03-2018, 09:36 AM   #5679
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzBegonia View Post
... Kanji is Chinese characters, which are much more complicated than kana. They were used as official name in documents, but on the hull there were just kanas which indicate the pronunciations.
For instance, Shiratsuyu would be written as 白露 (Kanji) in documents, シラツユ (Katakana) would be painted on the side of hull andしらつゆ (Hiragana) would be astern.
Ahh yesh... ignorant of me... it's all I can do to remember by own name (??!), therefore, Wikipedia becomes an evil crutch sometimes...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith View Post
... you'll find more digitally colored pictures on the artist's website:
http://blog.livedoor.jp/irootoko_jr/
An amazing artist. I love how he respects the original quality of the photograph...
Another "Very ~nice~ find!
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Old 01-03-2018, 11:58 AM   #5680
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Forgive me for this question... i'm newbie for Fotrsu

Will the campapgna in fotrsu be improved?
What are the changes?
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Old 01-03-2018, 12:19 PM   #5681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith View Post
The removal of the names and division numbers was to avoid US intelligence gaining knowledge about the activities and organisation of Combined Fleet's units. In the war off China, there was no need to hide them, since the Chinese Fleet was at the bottom of the sea by 1937.
American hull numbers are rather small in comparaison, maybe that's why they kept them ?

yyzBegonia, you'll find more digitally colored pictures on the artist's website:
http://blog.livedoor.jp/irootoko_jr/
An amazing artist. I love how he respects the original quality of the photograph.

Also, I'd like to apologize to you for my last post. I seemed pretty rude, and my post was ignoring the info you gave on the names.
Thanks for your link!

It's fine We were just discussing about historical issues aren't we?
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Old 01-03-2018, 01:19 PM   #5682
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Regarding the hull numbers for USN ships, they were retained. The wartime markings are just much smaller than peacetime markings, and harder to see in the photos.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016349b.jpg

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Old 01-03-2018, 02:09 PM   #5683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hauangua View Post
Forgive me for this question... i'm newbie for Fotrsu

Will the campapgna in fotrsu be improved?
What are the changes?
Let me ask you this: What would you consider an "improved campaign"? I mean, honestly. We want opinions. The more prodding we get for things, the more likely they are to be incorporated - to a point, though...

All that has been done thus far with the Campaign is mostly add-in traffic and docked ships, along with changing Type= calls as other files are edited. We've eliminated almost all un-terminated RGG in the Japanese mis files, and spread their spawn times throughout the day (the US files have been done similarly, but not as thoroughly). They don't all generate on the same day at the same time. Doing that has hopefully eliminated encountering 100+ subchasers in Bungo Suido if you so dare to tread the waters (look-out for the subnets and mines though... just sayin'). To do that, we've split the Jap_HarborTraffic.mis file (which had over 1200 RGG in it), into "layers" such that there is now a version for 41, 42a, 42b, 43a, 44a, and 44b (planned for the US files also). Doing such, besides helping with the game's efficiency, also allows easier traffic level changes and percentage frequencies. There are now over 1300 RGG in the 43a file. Eventually, you'll see "normal" traffic at the beginning of the game, with more unescorted merchants. The traffic level will increase until the 43a layer, where you will encounter more and more escorts, and fewer single & double merchants. As 44a & b come online, the escorts will become more deadly accurate, since they have more / better equipment.

I do not have my notes with me, so forgive me in not mentioning the modders' names (other than cdrsubron7), but there are a lot of cdrsubron7's Single Missions included (very good stuff), as well as a Quick Patrol he made. We also have the older Quick Patrol mission for the Aleutians translated from stock, and the MultiPlayer missions also work, so that if two folks have the same version of the mod, it should be MultiPlayer playable on a network - NOT uplay though, of course. At this point in v0.63, if you try MultiPlayer it may or may not work, since we partially broke it again with our last couple of edits (some bad ship calls in a few of the files), but it will be useable in the next version (but not on the German side - you can't "Switch Sides" in MultiPlayer)...

If by "better", you consider RSRDC an improvement - with permission, that will be worked on as an add-in mod. However, that will be a ~huge~ undertaking, since if you're going to do that, you may as well change the vessel calls. If you look at the current Midway and Aleutian IJN attack groups, the carriers have been changed to reflect what's available in the game. Unfortunately, we have not heard from lurker_hlb3 for his permission / blessing, although he gave blanket "authority" a while back to other modders... We'll see what happens in that regard.

Another little note about this... we've gone through the German side and made sure it plays (it's a good test bed for seeing things from the Axis side). We've also moved some traffic in it, especially the egregious spawns in some of the harbors, though there is still a very long way to go with that. However, I'll be making the CMN mod compliant with that side, so you'll be seeing that sometime after we finish with FotRSU... As it stands now, you'll still see quite a few double & triple spawns all merged into one another at a lot of locations on the UBoat starts. Also, nothing has been changed mission-wise etc., for that, other than the Type= calls for ships. But there is a SingleMissions mod ready to go for anyone wanting a translation of that from a Stock game mod... author's name again escapes me just now, but we did get permission...

Enough verbosity - I am out!
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Old 01-03-2018, 03:18 PM   #5684
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A new find: Sometimes the stern-name also uniformly offset at the center of stern:

IJN Shirayuki (Fubuki class). BTW her name literally means "Snow White". What a pretty name she had!
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:45 AM   #5685
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This is several weeks late, but I really like the "wrong" Hatsuharu class in FOTRS. It's the only time I have seen this version modeled in a video game, and it has grown on me.
Please don't change the ship too quickly. I may yearn for historical accuracy, but everything doesn't have to be exacly like reality. I certainly wouldn't dare to do a real time patrol like some madmen here do.



(now if it had a 50% chance of tipping over...)
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