[rel] Sleeping Giant

[peabody]

New mission for SH4 Sleeping Giant

http://home.roadrunner.com/~peabody/SH4/SM20 Sleeping Giant.zip

Peabody

[howler93]

Thanks, Peabody! Downloading now... Hopefully I'll find time to try it soon!

Howler

[peabody]

Originally Posted by howler93

Thanks, Peabody! Downloading now... Hopefully I'll find time to try it soon!

Howler

Thanks Howler, you are a gentleman.

Peabody

[Nisgeis]

Hi Peabody, I tried this mission and i have to say I was thoroughly confused about where I should be and I was a complete failure. The orders said return to Pearl harbour, so I thought OK, I'm at Pearl now, so I'll sail to the mission objective. This ended the mission. So that was obviously the wrong thing to do (I did notice it said turn right at the end, and this didn't sound quite right).

So the next time out, I assumed I should be sailing out with the task force, so i did that, then got a message about the hostilities not starting yet, so no shooting. Then i got a message saying the Japanese had invaded Manilla... Then another message saying the US and Japan were not at war, which I realise is a campaign layer thing.

I then sailed to the marked star, and saw Japanese planes that attacked me, then I got a message about the task force not being found and they were expected to attack shortly. At this point, it wasn't clear whether I should return to Pearl harbour, or to remain on station at the rendezvous point. So I decided to sail back to Pearl, with my amazing foresight, I suspected Pearl might be attacked.

So I return to Pearl, being attacked by Japanese planes all the way back and arrived at the mouth of Pearl, to be told that the task force was to the north of me, near Opana, but I have no idea where Opana is, so wasn't sure if I was in the right place. I couldn't find the task force at all.

Were there planes actually attacking Pearl at the time the said they were? I wasn't close enough to see - about 40 miles out and by the time I got there, no one was home.

Could the orders be direct? Ie RETURN TO PEARL IMMEDIATELY. STAY ON STATION. Also, when the message about Opana being the suspected position of the task force, how about a map contact update?

[peabody]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

Hi Peabody, I tried this mission and i have to say I was thoroughly confused about where I should be and I was a complete failure. The orders said return to Pearl harbour, so I thought OK, I'm at Pearl now, so I'll sail to the mission objective. This ended the mission. So that was obviously the wrong thing to do (I did notice it said turn right at the end, and this didn't sound quite right).

So the next time out, I assumed I should be sailing out with the task force, so i did that, then got a message about the hostilities not starting yet, so no shooting. Then i got a message saying the Japanese had invaded Manilla... Then another message saying the US and Japan were not at war, which I realise is a campaign layer thing.

I then sailed to the marked star, and saw Japanese planes that attacked me, then I got a message about the task force not being found and they were expected to attack shortly. At this point, it wasn't clear whether I should return to Pearl harbour, or to remain on station at the rendezvous point. So I decided to sail back to Pearl, with my amazing foresight, I suspected Pearl might be attacked.

So I return to Pearl, being attacked by Japanese planes all the way back and arrived at the mouth of Pearl, to be told that the task force was to the north of me, near Opana, but I have no idea where Opana is, so wasn't sure if I was in the right place. I couldn't find the task force at all.

Were there planes actually attacking Pearl at the time the said they were? I wasn't close enough to see - about 40 miles out and by the time I got there, no one was home.

Could the orders be direct? Ie RETURN TO PEARL IMMEDIATELY. STAY ON STATION. Also, when the message about Opana being the suspected position of the task force, how about a map contact update?

Wow, that was a mess. Sorry about that. The biggest problem is the game doesn't give you a message right away, so if you had stayed docked a message would come up expecting an attack blah blah, task force and subs leave pearl immediately, open sealed order after underway, blah blah.
Then as you follow the BBs out of the harbor you get a message to go NW to your station (star). The not at war was my message because to make it realistic I had to have the Japanese attack first.
The Manila thing was generated by the game not my mission.

Should have made it clear to remain at station. Was just attempting to give updates. The planes were not put in by me either, but there are 6 carriers headed your way so the game probably did that. On testing I didn't get planes till after the attack was over.
Then you get a message about mini sub sunk outside harbor, which did happen IRL.
Then a message they haven't found them yet.
Then a message they are found and large formation of planes picked up on Radar.

Opana Point is where the radar picked up the jap planes, but it was ignored because they thought it was the B17s coming from the mainland (happened IRL) and the message read that they picked up a large formation of planes not ships so I didn't think that would create a confusing issue, but it did. Basically what I was saying but didn't say very well is that the invasion force had launched their planes so the intelligence we got was right and they were coming from the Northwest right where you were, so be on the lookout for the ships. But I didn't give enough info and like you commented if you didn't know where Opana was you wouldn't understand the message. But in writing it I didn't put where Opana was because you weren't suppose to go there anyway.

Then a message that you could attack because the planes had started to attack Pearl Harbor. And that Task Force 7 was on it's way to help. So the planes had already been launched and the invasion force had to stick around until the planes returned which is when you step in and sink them all. I allowed time for you to sink some ships and then the task force arrives to help because you don't have enough fish to sink everything (2BB and 6 Carriers plus escorts) and you can continue to sink ships while they are attacking. Actually it takes the DDs off your back too.
I was hoping it would also make you have to make a choice. The BBs can be a problem for the US task force but the Carriers need to be sunk, so it's a choice thing.

The part about ending the mission I had a hard time with. I set a zone for you to enter to end the mission but it couldn't be in the channel leading into the harbor because you would trip it on the way out. That was the reason for the enter channel and turn right to trip the "end game".

Now, I can see where you would be confused especially when the game waits so long to give you the message to leave port, and the objective message wasn't very good now that I read it over. I wanted the message to leave port to appear immediately, so you wouldn't sit there wondering what to do, but the game doesn't work that way. I set the time but it gives the message quite a bit later.

I will definately have to rework this one, because you were basically suppose to stay on station and you would be notified if and where we found the invasion force. I have read the messages again and I can see where you would be confused because you were not specifically told to stay on station.

Thanks for giving it a try, I will have to change it and make the messages more specific. But, it's probably too late, anyone that downloaded it probably won't download again, but I'll give it a try.

Thanks again for trying it out. The input helps a lot so I won't make the same mistakes again. I definately have to change the Objective in the opening screen and come up with a better solution to end the game. I first tried the sink tonnage but then the stupid window pops up while you're in the middle of the fight, and any trigger zones would get tripped while you are leaving, maybe I can set it so the zone isn't there until after you leave.

Anyway that is the explaination so at least you know what was suppose to happen, if you had stayed on station the Japanese Invasion force would come by. The messages on the planes was just to give you info that happened IRL to make it more "historical" instead it made it more confusing.

One thing you didn't notice or at least didn't mention, you had a Gar sub which wasn't even available at that time. I put in a Gato but ended up with a Gar, don't understand that one.

All of your confusion makes perfect sense, I just didn't see it because I wrote the mission and I knew what was going on.

Once aging, thank you for trying it out!!!

Peabody

[Nisgeis]

Yeah, I know from old that designing scripted things is difficult, because the players don't do what you expect them to. As for the sub choice, I had wquite a wide choice and I chose a Tambor class :-).

I don't think many people will like to wait around doing nothing at the start of a mission, it will make them start to look for things to do on their own, which makes it confusing when the messages start coming in.

As for the start, I don't know a great deal about the attack on Pearl Harbour, but I do know that the carrier fleet had left a couple of days before on exercises... how about instead of starting in the harbour, you are part of a group of x submarines assigned to be the carrier fleet's screen on the exercise, when you receive flash traffic warning of an attack and your mission turns from exercise to real and you are sent to scout for the carrier group? You could receive orders directing your fellow subs to scout west and east of Pearl and you to scout north of pearl.

This would mean you started at sea, with the fleet and not in a laggy port (I have a nice machine, but it doesn't like harbours much fps wise).

As I understand it, a fleet of PBYs was sent out on diverging course of 10 degrees each to search for the carrier fleet and it was found by one at almost the limit of its fuel. I'm not expert with the mission editor, but I think you can create a task force and give it waypoints, so they player if he knows where it is can go directly for it. You can also have this task force removed at a certain date and a new task force created at the same spot a minute afterwards, with a contact report. this should, I think, create a contact report at the time you want for the location you want. I'm not sure though - have been so busy, barely had time to try this mission, let alone try something new in the mission editor :-). The contact report would make it crystal clear to the player where he should be heading. It then wouldn't matter if you had already encountered the Japanese fleet, as the PBY report would be sent to all ships anyway.

If you base the exercise southeast of Pearl, you should be fairly safe that there will be no planes.

That's just my thoughts, feel free to ignore them .

[peabody]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

Yeah, I know from old that designing scripted things is difficult, because the players don't do what you expect them to. As for the sub choice, I had wquite a wide choice and I chose a Tambor class :-).

I don't think many people will like to wait around doing nothing at the start of a mission, it will make them start to look for things to do on their own, which makes it confusing when the messages start coming in.

As for the start, I don't know a great deal about the attack on Pearl Harbour, but I do know that the carrier fleet had left a couple of days before on exercises... how about instead of starting in the harbour, you are part of a group of x submarines assigned to be the carrier fleet's screen on the exercise, when you receive flash traffic warning of an attack and your mission turns from exercise to real and you are sent to scout for the carrier group? You could receive orders directing your fellow subs to scout west and east of Pearl and you to scout north of pearl.

This would mean you started at sea, with the fleet and not in a laggy port (I have a nice machine, but it doesn't like harbours much fps wise).

As I understand it, a fleet of PBYs was sent out on diverging course of 10 degrees each to search for the carrier fleet and it was found by one at almost the limit of its fuel. I'm not expert with the mission editor, but I think you can create a task force and give it waypoints, so they player if he knows where it is can go directly for it. You can also have this task force removed at a certain date and a new task force created at the same spot a minute afterwards, with a contact report. this should, I think, create a contact report at the time you want for the location you want. I'm not sure though - have been so busy, barely had time to try this mission, let alone try something new in the mission editor :-). The contact report would make it crystal clear to the player where he should be heading. It then wouldn't matter if you had already encountered the Japanese fleet, as the PBY report would be sent to all ships anyway.

If you base the exercise southeast of Pearl, you should be fairly safe that there will be no planes.

That's just my thoughts, feel free to ignore them .

All excellent points, I appreciate the input. The reason I started in port is to give the feel for what should have happened if they had paid attention to the warning sign instead of ignoring them. And I just thought sailing out of port with a line of Battle Ships whould look cool. I did have some search planes leave while you were in port but you probably didn't see them because you were deciding what to do. I don't like the way it takes so long to get the messsage.
It was more a fantasy history, like how things could have been a whole lot different.
Good idea about giving a contact report!! Didn't think of that. The one reason I had the sub sail to a specific point is that the task force is going to show up to assist and if your're in the wrong spot you won't be part of the action and the other point is they may get there first and you won't have anything to do. That's what happened to Rockin Robbins on my first mission, it was recreating Bismark sea and planes did most of the attacking. Well, he got unlucky and the planes sank ALL the merchant ships. It had only happened once in testing and I tested it a lot.
But I could use your idea of being at sea and just make sure he gets to the spot on time. I left a little too much time in case you ran into something (like the planes that the game put in) and it took longer than expected to get on station.
As for the Carriers on exercise. There were only two, the third was in the US being repaired. And the two were transporting planes to Midway and I think Guam (not positive on the second) and not on exercises, there were not even together. The Enterprise should have been back in Pearl before the attack except the weather held her up.
But, I'll do some fixing and come up with something better. You made some good suggestions and I appreciate it.

Peabody

[fvd]

Hi Peabody,

Yesterday i tried your mission.
Here are some things i noticed (don't take this as criticisme please, i mean well because i know how hard it is to make a good mission, not to mention how much work).
-In Pearl there are some wrecks, i think they are "part" of Pearl harbor and not possible to remove but they are a bit disturbing because the actual attack which destroys and sink these ships is yet to happen.
-The first battleship (Nevada-class) on the right is stuck in the sand and makes some "crash noizes".
-The first objective which is to the left in the harbor remains yellow and unaccomplished once you get the message to leave Pearl as soon as possible, isn't it supposed to get gray then?
-I reached the new position on the chart to attack the task force and was able to sink one Shokaku fleet carrier and one Ise battleship (and not get any damage by destroyers ) but the second objective remains unaccomplished too so i wonder what tonnage i should sink to be succesfull?
-The task force 7 which is mentioned in the radio message and which should back me up remained a mistery for me cause i never saw it...
So i returned to Pearl to witness what incredible damage the japanese task force caused but to my surprise there was only one building on fire and no ships were harmed except for the wrecks which already were there when i left. (in that case America would not have taken part in WWII i think ).
Maybe you can fix this?

So all together it was an interesting mission, i liked the idea of the mission but maybe it needs some finetuning?
Anyway: thanks for the mission peabody and "keep up the good work" like they always said in SH3.

Regards,
fvd

[peabody]

Originally Posted by fvd

Hi Peabody,

Yesterday i tried your mission.
Here are some things i noticed (don't take this as criticisme please, i mean well because i know how hard it is to make a good mission, not to mention how much work).
-In Pearl there are some wrecks, i think they are "part" of Pearl harbor and not possible to remove but they are a bit disturbing because the actual attack which destroys and sink these ships is yet to happen.

I love comment and criticism, it helps fix the things I don't see. I wrote the thing so I know where I am suppose to be and what is suppose to happen. I want to know what happens when someone plays it that doesn't know. And I found out from you and Nisgeis that there are problems!
You are right the wrecks can't be removed, I tried. That is why I started the sub at the entrance, but the mission message takes so long to come up, people are looking around. Stop it.

Originally Posted by fvd

-The first battleship (Nevada-class) on the right is stuck in the sand and makes some "crash noizes".

If you mean the one just sitting there, that is another 'in game' boat, it is there sometimes and sometimes it isn't, not part of my mission. But if you mean one that is leaving port, I will have to check that out, didn't get any noises. Is it the one on the right facing into the harbor?

Originally Posted by fvd

-The first objective which is to the left in the harbor remains yellow and unaccomplished once you get the message to leave Pearl as soon as possible, isn't it supposed to get gray then?

That's a 'fine tuning' issue, that is where the mission is suppose to end and the star shouldn't be there at least not yet, but I think I am going to change the ending anyway. Part of the confusion and the looking around was that star and I never saw it because I wasn't looking over there at the beginning. Needs to be fixed. And Nisgeis brought up a good point too, some people's computers don't do very well in ports, so I may even change the beginning.

Originally Posted by fvd

-I reached the new position on the chart to attack the task force and was able to sink one Shokaku fleet carrier and one Ise battleship (and not get any damage by destroyers ) but the second objective remains unaccomplished too so i wonder what tonnage i should sink to be succesfull?

I started with a tonnage and took it out (at least I thought I took it out. better check it out.) and made your mission to return safely. I just figured in this type of mission, amount didn't matter. Maybe I should put something back in? At the time I didn't have an "end game" and the completed mission window popped up in the middle of the battle. Like we talked about before. By the way, I like the way you ended your mission. I was about to write to you, finally sunk the Yamato. I sunk it first time I played then you changed the ending and I couldn't sink it again until last night. That thing doesn't want to go down!! So i finally got to see how you ended the mission.

Originally Posted by fvd

-The task force 7 which is mentioned in the radio message and which should back me up remained a mistery for me cause i never saw it...

Hmmmm....That's strange it should have shown up just about the time you finished sinking the ships. Were you near the Star or did you leave the area, because they attack close to the star, a little south but close enough to destroy the Japanese fleet that you don't sink. Close enough so you can see there are ships in the distance. In fact when they show up, it distracts the DDs and I was sinking more ships, instead of trying to get away. But, if you were going north to evade that probably took you and the DDs out of the attack. I used the "cross the T" method. Don't know if you're familiar with that but the BBs like to attack in front of the enemy like the top of the T, that way they can fire all their guns but the enemy can only use the forward guns. Sound crazy being boadside but getting the distance right for a shot is more difficult than the aim. And the ship is obviously a lot longer than it is wide so it works. You are fireing all your guns at a long target while they are shooting only the front guns at a very narrow target. Depending on the ship you can be a couple hundred feet off on the distance and still hit them. But if they are off by half that they miss completely.

Originally Posted by fvd

So i returned to Pearl to witness what incredible damage the japanese task force caused but to my surprise there was only one building on fire and no ships were harmed except for the wrecks which already were there when i left. (in that case America would not have taken part in WWII i think ).
Maybe you can fix this?

Well, we probably wouldn't have a war because we sank almost all their carriers. Six were on the Invasion and they only had 8 or 9. And the times I played it, I took out the BBs and the task force could then take out the carriers a lot easier. You can get both BBs if you time it right and they don't spot your scope going up and down. The center ship in front (heavy cruiser I think) gets just far enough ahead of the Ise in time to fire. Not planned, just happened. Then down scope and wait for the one on the near side (Kongo).
Any damage at Pearl is just because the campaign put up planes, I assume because there are six carriers, I didn't put any planes up except the patrol planes that take off at the beginning of the mission, if you even saw them. I finished the attack part of the mission and surfaced to sail back with the fleet a bit and 27 planes showed up. So they must have been from the carriers, all in one big group.
Maybe I should send some planes into Pearl? I wonder if they will attack anything other than ships? Never tried it. And part of the mission, in one of the messages, is that Pearl was going to be protected by fighter cover. Problem with the game is that the planes won't attack each other so I didn't actually put them in.

Originally Posted by fvd

So all together it was an interesting mission, i liked the idea of the mission but maybe it needs some finetuning?
Anyway: thanks for the mission peabody and "keep up the good work" like they always said in SH3.

I totally agree it needs some work. Your comments and Nisgeis comments were a big help. I didn't see a lot of the problems you did, because I knew what was happening and what was going to happen. Kind of like having blinders on.
One thing that I really didn't like is most of the time there is a Carrier sitting right in front of the sub at the start and there weren't suppose to be any in port at that time. That is one reason the Enterprise is arriving as you leave port. It is a bit too far out and you are looking into the sun so you may not have noticed it, I was going to change that too.
Question: Did you check your map after the attack? Wondered if the Invasion force was destroyed? If there were a bunch of sunken ships on your map then the task force showed up, but maybe while you were evading the DDs. There were 4 grey ones the last time I played it and it turns out they were USA. But one time there was also a blue one, so I guess the red (obviously) is enemy and the blue and grey are Allied. Oh, darn there's the problem. Blue and Grey, I'm still in the Civil War.

I haven't given up on this mission yet. I think I can fix it and may even add to it, like a carrier that gets damaged or has engine problems and slithers away unnoticed (maybe before the attack begins?) a patrol plane spots it and you have to go get it, maybe with a refit at Midway. What do you think?
One thing I noticed that you didn't comment on, but it created a problem for Nisgeis, I allowed too much time to get to where you were suppose to be. I started on the first and the Invasion wasn't until the fourth and the planes took off at 0600. I gave extra time in case you ran into something and had to make the trip submerged or ran into an enemy vessel and had to go around, but I left way too much time for that. And that left Nisgeis wondering what to do, because nothing was happening.
So the long wait for the Mission message at the beginning and the long wait for the Invasion need to be changed too.

Thanks for all the comments and ideas, it gives me the information I need to make it better or at least playable.
And I really like the way you fixed the couple of bugs in your mission, perfect!

Peabody

[fvd]

Originally Posted by fvd

-The first battleship (Nevada-class) on the right is stuck in the sand and makes some "crash noizes".

If you mean the one just sitting there, that is another 'in game' boat, it is there sometimes and sometimes it isn't, not part of my mission. But if you mean one that is leaving port, I will have to check that out, didn't get any noises. Is it the one on the right facing into the harbor? [/quote]

Yes, that's the one, so then it's a "in game boat".

Originally Posted by fvd

-The task force 7 which is mentioned in the radio message and which should back me up remained a mistery for me cause i never saw it...

Hmmmm....That's strange it should have shown up just about the time you finished sinking the ships. Were you near the Star or did you leave the area, because they attack close to the star, a little south but close enough to destroy the Japanese fleet that you don't sink. Close enough so you can see there are ships in the distance. In fact when they show up, it distracts the DDs and I was sinking more ships, instead of trying to get away. But, if you were going north to evade that probably took you and the DDs out of the attack. I used the "cross the T" method. Don't know if you're familiar with that but the BBs like to attack in front of the enemy like the top of the T, that way they can fire all their guns but the enemy can only use the forward guns. Sound crazy being boadside but getting the distance right for a shot is more difficult than the aim. And the ship is obviously a lot longer than it is wide so it works. You are fireing all your guns at a long target while they are shooting only the front guns at a very narrow target. Depending on the ship you can be a couple hundred feet off on the distance and still hit them. But if they are off by half that they miss completely.[/quote]

Yes, i was near the star, just 12 km north of it.

Originally Posted by fvd

So all together it was an interesting mission, i liked the idea of the mission but maybe it needs some finetuning?
Anyway: thanks for the mission peabody and "keep up the good work" like they always said in SH3.

I totally agree it needs some work. Your comments and Nisgeis comments were a big help. I didn't see a lot of the problems you did, because I knew what was happening and what was going to happen. Kind of like having blinders on.
One thing that I really didn't like is most of the time there is a Carrier sitting right in front of the sub at the start and there weren't suppose to be any in port at that time. That is one reason the Enterprise is arriving as you leave port. It is a bit too far out and you are looking into the sun so you may not have noticed it, I was going to change that too.
Question: Did you check your map after the attack? Wondered if the Invasion force was destroyed? If there were a bunch of sunken ships on your map then the task force showed up, but maybe while you were evading the DDs. There were 4 grey ones the last time I played it and it turns out they were USA. But one time there was also a blue one, so I guess the red (obviously) is enemy and the blue and grey are Allied. Oh, darn there's the problem. Blue and Grey, I'm still in the Civil War.[/quote]

Yes, i checked the map but saw nothing like it, but i play at 96 % realism (just with external camera on), maybe this has something to do with it?

Thanks for all the comments and ideas, it gives me the information I need to make it better or at least playable.
And I really like the way you fixed the couple of bugs in your mission, perfect!

Peabody[/quote]

You're welcome!
Best regards,
fvd

[Nisgeis]

Woah, that really messed with my head for a second there. I was thinking why is fvd quoting himself and replying to it with what Peabody said.

[peabody]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

Woah, that really messed with my head for a second there. I was thinking why is fvd quoting himself and replying to it with what Peabody said.

Same with me, I was wondering what was going on until I read him info at the bottom.

Peabody

[fvd]

Sorry for the confusion, i guess i didn't do a great job with the "quote tags" so the layout was a mess.
Sorry for that...

Best regards,
fvd