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Old 07-06-17, 09:32 PM   #1
The Bandit
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Default "Omitted American submarines"

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=5260

After having a great time with the "Playable Russian Submarines" mod and learning a bit about how its put together, I sat down and created some configs to bring some of my favorite old cold war subs into the game.

The premise I'm working off of is "What US Navy boats could have been available in 1968 or 1984 that were omitted from the game?" Also please note, until something major changes with this game, there will be no way to use anything other than the assets already in the game, therefore MANY OF THESE SUBS WILL USE SOVIET 3d MODELS. That means your GUPPY II is going to look like a Foxtrot, your Skate is going to look like a Romeo and your Seawolf is going to look like a Tango. This may be insurmountable for some but as of yet there isn't any way I can think of that's better.

Fleetboats (all use the Foxtrot model) all circa 1968 except Tunny
Gato class Auxiliary (basically left over from the Migraine SSR program)
Tunny SSG (Regulus I boat)
Gato class SSK
Balao class "Fleetboat snorkel"
Balao "SSK"
Balao class LPSS (USS Sealion and Perch, amphib / SEAL haulers)
Tench class "Fleetboat snorkel"
Guppy IA/IIA (both Balao and Tench variants)
Guppy II (both Balao and Tench Variants)
Guppy III (both Balao and Tench variants)

I included both Balao and Tench variations to reflect the minor differences in the Tench i.e weapons capacity, diving depth (improved hull) and so on.

Diesel boats
Tang class (1968)
Barracuda class (1968) (Whiskey model)
Barbel class (68 and 84) (Skipjack model)
Sailfish class SSR
Greyback class
Darter class

Nuke boats
Tullibee class SSN (1968) (Permit model)
Tullibee class SSN (1984)
Glenard P. Lipscomb class SSN (Sturgeon model)
Triton class SSRN (in SSN configuration circa 1968) (November model)
Skate class SSN (1968) (Romeo model)
USS Nautilus SSN (special thanks to Leopard Driver for the config)
Skate class SSN (1984)
Halibut class SSN (1968) (Juliet model)
Seawolf (SSN-575) class SSN (1968) (Tango model)
Seawolf Special Projects SSN (1984)
Ethan Allen class SSN ("slow attack / SEAL Delivery) (Yankee model)
Los Angeles class SSN "Flight 0" (initial configuration lacking TB-16 and Harpoon / Tomahawk)
Los Angeles class SSN "Flight 2" VLS (12 VLS tubes, slightly more powerful reactor, Anechoic coating)
Jack "class" SSN (1968 and 84) (longer permit with contra-rotating screws)
Permit "Long Hull" class SSN (68 and 84) (Sturgeon model)
Sturgeon "Long Hull" class SSN (84) (Sturgeon model)
Skipjack "5B" SSN (historical, as completed with 5 blade prop, faster speed but noisy)

Boomers (all use Yankee class model)
George Washington class
Ethan Allen class
Lafayette class (68 and 84)
Benjamin Franklin class (68 and 84)

Hypotheticals
Thresher class SSN (historical, as completed with 5 blade prop, faster speed but noisy)
Astoria class SSGN (APHNAS / CMS hypothetical design of the 1970s) (688 model)
Thomas A. Edison class SSGN (hypothetical projected Ethan Allen SSGN conversion)
Eel class SSN (hypothetical CONFORM design of late 60s early 70s) (Alfa model)
Orca class SSN (hypothetical CONFORM Flight 2, mid 80s)
Redfish class SSN (hypothetical FAS affordable SSN program, late 70s)
Permit class SSGN (improved Halibut)


W.I.P
I'd like to see if there's a way to get SEAL teams aboard some of the transport boats without removing their entire armament. Ultimately I may get into some campaign work specifically for these boats to make them be used more frequently for special ops.

Also a warning, when you play as some of these boats, prepare to be FRUSTRATED. Many of them have the same sensor suite as the Skipjack class with none of its positive attributes (Speed and maneuverability). Basically in many ways you'll get to see why these boats were considered "second-line". For all that though, speaking from my own point of view, I've also found the experience of playing these boats to be both challenging and rewarding.

What I would advise most people to do for fun, pick either campaign and just try a random boat, see how long you can survive and if you can learn the "ins and outs" / peculiarities of each class. I've had a lot of fun with the USS Tullibee as long as you play to its strengths.

Also included are a few new sensors (AN/BQR-4, AN/BQG-4 PUFFS, AN/BQR-21, AN/BQH-5) to roughly approximate the capabilities of some of these boats (PUFFS is kind of a hard one because I can't really do anything to make localization better without upping its detection range) and the inclusion of Mk 37 variants and a very compromised Mk 45.

Weapons featured
Mk 37 mod 0 (acoustic homing torpedo, no wire)
Mk 37 mod 1 (wire guided, 750 yard detection range)
Mk 37 mod 2 (basically the standard one you all know, featured an improved piezoelectric transducer for increased detection range of 1000 yards vs older)
Mk 37 mod 3 (mod 2 but with no wire)
Mk 37C (forerunner to the NT37 program, otto-fueled 36 knot speed, 10,000 yard range and improved seeker, was being tested in 1968 but was not favored over the eventual Mk 48 which was going to be much more capable.)

Mk 45 ASTOR (Sadly this one won't go boom like a real one, but what it does give you is a wire-guided 40 knot torpedo with a 15,000 yard range and no guidance besides the wire so you've got to walk it all the way home. While obviously the real weapon didn't have to be anywhere near as precise with a 4500 yard kill range, this at least gives the player a similar sort of experience of having to guide the torpedo to its target.)

UGM-89A/UGM-89C STAM
Ship and Land attack Perseus Submarine TActical Missiles. This is the missile program that goes along with the APHNAS / CMS program for a 20 tube VLS SSGN which in some was would have been like an american answer to the Oscar class. This missile was canceled along with the rest of the program because, unlike Tomahawk, it could not fit in a standard torpedo tube so could only have been used by subs built for or retro-fitted with 30" VLS tubes.

UUM-89B PSOW
Perseus Anti-Submarine StandOff Weapon. This would have been a SUBROC type replacement which would have carried the Mk 49 torpedo.

UUM-84 Tarpon
Hypothetical ASW missile based off of the Harpoon. Carries a Mk 46 torpedo.

UUM-44B SUBROC
Hypothetical conventional model which was canceled in the mid 60s. Mk 44 torpedo payload.

Mk 49 Torpedo
Basically a truncated MK 48 shortened to fit the Perseus missile. While bigger than the standard 12.75" air dropped torps like Mk 46, it has a bigger warhead and a longer range.

Mk 46 Torpedo
Early-mid 60s air-dropped or surface launched ASW torpedo. Otto fuel 40 knot speed

Mk 44 torpedo
1950s era ASW torpedo, electric power 30 knot speed.

Known issues
Diesel/Electric subs going faster than they should: I have seen this a few times where a sub that shouldn't be capable of it is traveling around at 18 knot underwater because it can do that on the surface. May look at lowering surface speeds. This excess speed may be related to the campaign map speed bug.

Test depth isn't "right" on some boats: You may notice that some of the GUPPYs have their TD a bit deeper than reality (500-550 feet). The main reason I have done this is to reflect the true capabilities of these subs. In a few notable cases fleet boats descended past 1000 feet (i.e. USS Chopper, but in all fairness Chopper never sailed again) so it can be done.

Weapons sprites look like they were made in MS Paint: That's because they were, and I'm very proud of them. Seriously for as bad as these look I was trying to simulate the type of "weapon tags" I'd imagine they'd have on a board somewhere in the torpedo room to keep track of what's loaded where.

No unique damage control charts : This is something I'd like to try to address going forward but for now, every submarine uses either a chart that came with the game (say for the 688 for Permit for example) or one of CaptainX3's that he's made for his russian boats. I can't thank him enough for both the work he's done and for allowing me to base my mod from his.

UPDATES
Update 1.1 7/10/2017:
Removed 3rd screw from boats based on Foxtrot and Tango models
Added UGM-89A/B/C Perseus STAM for Astoria class SSGN
Added Barracuda class SSK
Added Tang class SS
Added Halibut class SSN
Added Single Missions
Rationalized sensors.txt and weapons.txt

Update 1.2 7/12/2017:
Re-balanced the noise settings for various boats (including soviet subs)
Added Barbel class (68 and 84) along with BLQ-2B towed array sonar
Added hypothetical Eel class based on CONFORM program
Added hypothetical / historic Thresher class, reflecting increased noise/speed
Split Permit and Sturgeon classes into their sub-class variants.
Changed UGM-89B PSOW ASW weapon to UUM-89B
Added optional campaign files which remove hypothetical units
Changed Ethan Allen class from Sturgeon to Yankee class model

Update 1.3 7/13/2017
Forgot to include the soviet submarines with modified (lowered noise levels)
Increased the noise levels on Fleetboats to make them louder than Whiskey class.

Update 1.4 7/15/2017
Changed props for several ships (Jack, Eel, Ethan Allen, Thresher)
Added historic Skipjack 1968 5B (five-bladed screw)
Added Orca class hypothetical SSN (CONFORM Flight 2)
Changed available Sturgeon-68 units to reflect the boats in service as of December 68
Altered Barracuda class so they can no longer control wire-guided torpedoes due to equipped FC system
Re balanced silencing on Soviet Units, should now see a very pronounced difference between first (arguably Victor I/Charlie and earlier) and second generation (Victor II and later) designs.

Update 1.5
-more re-balancing
-added 4 and 5 blade screws to the GUPPYs and Fleetboats as well as Tang.

Update 1.6
New update is on the way.
-Added towed array (BQR-25) to the Skate class (1984)
-Added Sailfish class SS (former SSR)
-Added Greyback class LPSS (former SSG)
-4 and 5 blade props added to various other subs (mostly older GUPPY/Fleeboat)
-using mast data from PRS Mod, all masts and periscopes should now be visible
-changed Barbel, Skipjack (68 / 5B) and Thresher to use the Skipjack 5 blade screw (Thanks again Julhelm!)

Update 1.7 7/31/2017
Added "41 for Freedom" boomers
Added USS Nautilus (thanks to LeopardDriver)
Added George Washington class SSN
Added Redfish SSN (hypothetical FAS project for cheaper 688 alternative)
Changed many textures just to make the subs look a bit different from their Soviet counterparts. Made subs appear a bit darker.
Added several new weapons (UUM-44, UUM-84)

1.8
-MK 37 torpedo overhaul, lowered noise levels to prevent subs from hearing torpedoes in their baffles. Throughout testing they still hear them from other angles though so all seems good.
-Overhauled and added a few sensors (like BQR-15)
-Added many improved models made by Leopard Driver using available CW assets (Tang, Darter, Greyback, Halibut, Skate, Sailfish, Tullibee, Barbel, Glenard P. Lipscomb, all included SSBNs)
-new hypothetical "Permit-class SSGN"
-new Tunny SSG
-Regulus I and II cruise missiles.


I welcome any and all input anybody can give, especially in regards to some of the specifics on older boats.
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Old 07-06-17, 10:30 PM   #2
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It is nice to read the stories. But many stories just don't get written and they are probably the most interesting. Sure, most patrols, even in '68 or '84, were standard in most ways but it would be nice to feel the emotions for sailing on the dark side.

A friend, who has passed away, was a sailor on a sub that sailed into Tokyo Harbor before the end of WWII. He was never recognized, nor received any benefits. I only knew him for six months before he passed and I found a picture of men on deck for his boat and he pointed to himself. I think he was a member of the Greatest Generation.

Suddenly, I just feel grateful.
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Old 07-07-17, 03:23 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delgard View Post
It is nice to read the stories. But many stories just don't get written and they are probably the most interesting. Sure, most patrols, even in '68 or '84, were standard in most ways but it would be nice to feel the emotions for sailing on the dark side.

A friend, who has passed away, was a sailor on a sub that sailed into Tokyo Harbor before the end of WWII. He was never recognized, nor received any benefits. I only knew him for six months before he passed and I found a picture of men on deck for his boat and he pointed to himself. I think he was a member of the Greatest Generation.

Suddenly, I just feel grateful.
Well, I'm kind of struggling with it (not nearly as good at it / as easy as I thought it would be) but I'm also trying to put something of a video together for youtube to both show off the mod (in all of its soviet-looking goodness) and show how to play as some of these old boats.

Once I got everything together I went in and started the 1968 campaign with a random boat. Obviously I didn't know what I was going to get but, one look down that list and its like the island of misfit toys, you have old tired diesel boats, strange one-offs like the Triton and Tullibee and then you have your borderline outdated stuff like your Skates and the Seawolf.

Anyways, what I ended up getting was USS Tirante, a Guppy IIA (Tench) class. I knew the name sounds familiar but I didn't think anything of it until after the first mission was over. Turns out this was the boat that Ned Beach (as in Run Silent Run Deep) was XO on. George Street was the captain and he won the medal of honor for one of the most daring attacks ever made running in on the surface in shallow water.

Its an amazing thing to consider how many of these old boats served for so long. On the note of your friend, do you follow Jive Turkey on youtube, just today he revealed that he experienced the sudden loss of somebody who became a good friend to him who had served as a Chemical Safety Officer in the Soviet Navy.

Its sad to lose these people because with each passing day the world gets one step closer to forgetting.
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Old 07-07-17, 08:01 AM   #4
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That was his boat. Reminiscing for a moment, he said he was 17ish, this being a bunch of years ago that I ran into him. We connected because of submarines and I have a respect for the history and the challenges faced.

I was just looking for the picture I remember and don't see it. It really didn't have much meaning for me and probably went with a hard drive purging.

I was kind of surprised when he said the Navy never really kept up with him and didn't seem to know him. I just put it down to the times and that the military was releasing several millions of service members at the time. He said he got a physical and a bus ticket to his parents home in Nebraska. But, he was in a wheel chair and I gave him some errand rides and an older computer. I made the picture a part of the screen saver. I had it bypass the login and he just clicked on IE and got a home page with links. He ended up leaving the Navy shortly after the war with only like 2 years of service. He became a teacher and retired as a principal.

I think I spent all of a day looking for info and reading a general summary of the event. He remembered the mission as just being scared. I put it down to his being a farm kid in an alien world.

He was a neighbor to an apartment that I rented. He passed of heart failure and a niece came, collected him, and took him for burial.

Anyway, the immersion part of CW and the opportunity of missions out of the norm are a value for us that didn't live/participate in the times. Nowadays we just fire a missile from many miles away.

Good luck on the mod.
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Old 07-07-17, 05:30 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delgard View Post
That was his boat. Reminiscing for a moment, he said he was 17ish, this being a bunch of years ago that I ran into him. We connected because of submarines and I have a respect for the history and the challenges faced.

I was just looking for the picture I remember and don't see it. It really didn't have much meaning for me and probably went with a hard drive purging.

I was kind of surprised when he said the Navy never really kept up with him and didn't seem to know him. I just put it down to the times and that the military was releasing several millions of service members at the time. He said he got a physical and a bus ticket to his parents home in Nebraska. But, he was in a wheel chair and I gave him some errand rides and an older computer. I made the picture a part of the screen saver. I had it bypass the login and he just clicked on IE and got a home page with links. He ended up leaving the Navy shortly after the war with only like 2 years of service. He became a teacher and retired as a principal.

I think I spent all of a day looking for info and reading a general summary of the event. He remembered the mission as just being scared. I put it down to his being a farm kid in an alien world.

He was a neighbor to an apartment that I rented. He passed of heart failure and a niece came, collected him, and took him for burial.

Anyway, the immersion part of CW and the opportunity of missions out of the norm are a value for us that didn't live/participate in the times. Nowadays we just fire a missile from many miles away.

Good luck on the mod.
Its a small world and always interesting when coincidences like that come up. In the reading I've done I don't recall Tirante ever getting to Tokyo bay (only two war patrols, was leaving on her 3rd when the war ended) but she did make it into Nagasaki a few times, which may as well have been Tokyo for as busy as it was. The Japanese were in a mad dash to get whatever and whoever they could over from China to prepare for the forthcoming American invasion and Nagasaki was the closes port.

Another important first for the Tirante, on one of these patrols she became the first american submarine to fire a homing torpedo when she used a Mk 27 "cutie" against an attacking escort. While it was claimed they heard the screw stop and the ship break up, the kill was never confirmed.
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Old 07-07-17, 08:03 PM   #6
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OK the mod has been released. So far just the campaigns, no single missions yet but I'll try to get to that soon enough.

Like I said earlier, roll the dice, hit random and tell us all about what boat your given and how you do.
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Old 07-07-17, 11:32 PM   #7
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Well I just figured something out, its completely possible for me to remove the third / center screw from both the Foxtrot and Tango classes. For the Foxtrot, it just leaves a very innocuous stub but for the Tango the cowling / duct is still there for the screw. I think that will be part of the next update which will be in a day or so.
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Old 07-08-17, 12:02 AM   #8
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Add the Barbel class! It's more or less a diesel electric Skipjack.
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Old 07-08-17, 11:22 AM   #9
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Add the Barbel class! It's more or less a diesel electric Skipjack.
Yeah, I haven't done those or the Tangs either but IIRC both of those are available in the "playable russian submarines" mod. I may make a version though we'll see what happens.
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Old 07-10-17, 04:30 AM   #10
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mod updated
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Old 07-11-17, 10:24 PM   #11
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Update to 1.2 is imminent
Changes
-Split Permit and Sturgeon into sub classes (got the idea from Capt Jack Harkness)
Permit class "Long Hull" (68 and 84)
Jack (68 and 84) (sorry no contra-rotating prop....yet)
Sturgeon class "Long Hull" (only 84 because they did not exist in 68)
-Added Barbel class (68 and 84)
-Added Hypothetical USS Thresher as built with the 7 blade screw (32 knots but louder than a Skipjack)
-Changed Ethan Allen SSN / Thomas A. Edison SSGN to Yankee model (special
thanks to Ramius for getting the model to work with 1 prop)
-Various balancing improvements (GUPPYs and Fleetboats are a bit louder now, so Soviet subs have been quieted down and other adjustments.)
-Changed the ASW STAM to UUM-89B from UGM-89B

I figured I'd throw it out to everyone, as far as the sub-classes go, I've just gone with "Permit (Long Hull)" and think that's fine. The other option would be to go with "Archerfish class" or "Flasher class" which I think will probably cause some confusion.

Also wanted to throw this out there. I'm considering making a 1962-era Cuban Missile Crisis campaign (obviously going to occur in and around the Barents and North Sea) because it goes a bit better with some of the old diesel-boats I've created. While this may end up playing like "easy-mode" (the Soviets will have the SET-53 which only goes 23 knots and is basically their version of the Mk 37) especially for Nuclear-powered boats.

I think this may be a good thing because players will get to experience how under-matched and destabilizing early nuclear boats were. Nautilus especially and even Skate and the Skipjack class after her all caused fits for the friendly surface forces she exercised against.
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Old 07-12-17, 01:54 PM   #12
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Delayed a bit and created something based on the CONFORM design which was terminated in favor of what became the Los Angeles class. On paper, many things about CONFORM look better than the 688, but it was banking on / relying on a whole lot of new and un-tried stuff to attain this superior performance.

Also a note on the Thresher class, I've very likely overstated how loud it was with the 7-blade screw but this is to show how much this problem would have undermined the improvements made with Thresher.
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Old 07-14-17, 03:23 AM   #13
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So a bit of good news, I knew there just was something I wasn't getting with the masks, and I've figured it out, so now I've been able to change out the screws on some of the models.

This means that we're going to have the Jack with tandem props using a screw from the Oscar (sorry I can't make them contra-roatating but it will do the job for anybody who wants to use that boat it does have a few advantages over the standard Permit).

The Thresher will have its original 5 blade screw (from the Victor), an I will probably do a 5 bladed version of the Skipjack as well. This prop does look a bit small on this model but I think it is the best of the bunch between the 5 blades that come on the Charlie I or the Alfa.

While its still too small, the Ethan Allen looks a bit better with the 7 blade screw from the Delta IV. I may try it with a 688 screw next and see how that goes.

As far as other units go, I've edited the Sturgeon_68 to reflect the unit availability so now you'll only be assigned boats like Lapon and Queenfish that were actually in service at the time.

And finally, I'm going to include what will probably be my last hypothetical boat called the Orca class (CONFORM equivalent to 688 Flt 2). It kind of explores what could have been the bad side of the CONFORM design and why Admiral Rickover didn't want it.
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Old 07-15-17, 03:34 AM   #14
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mod updated
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Old 07-16-17, 08:41 AM   #15
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another small update today. Added some 4 and 5 blade screws to GUPPY and Fleetboat classes.
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