Is it just me or do ships sink a LOT faster in LSH15 compared to GWX?

ChaosDuck7 · 10-31-15, 04:41 PM

I dont know if im just remembering it wrong but it seems like they dotn really flood "to death" in LSH, they just "die" and sink immedietly.

I have the realistic ship sinking checked in the difficulty. Am I right on this or just imagining things?

KingOfNothing22 · 10-31-15, 07:52 PM

I've noticed it too. Sometimes they do take quite a while, listing and slowing down and stuff usually before another eel finishes them off, and then other times one hit causes them to break in half and sink in seconds, even with the flak gun!

THEBERBSTER · 11-01-15, 11:23 AM

Hi Guys

I do not think that is unreasonable as a "critical hit" in the right place will do enough damage to sink the ship.
If it happens too regularly in the game then that is a different matter.

Peter

GT182 · 11-01-15, 12:24 PM

They may take longer as the crews are trying hard to save them.

K-61 · 11-10-15, 08:43 AM

I find they take a lot longer to sink, as well. I am also finding that I am having to sink even some of the smallest ships with multiple torpedoes. I think it ridiculous that a lousy 2,000 ton vessel can take three torpedoes distributed over the beam and keel over the course of hours in game time. It does feel strange as compared to GWX.

On the other hand, I have recently enjoyed some one-shot successes with larger vessels that I expected I would need two or more to sink, including a C-3, for example.

In balance, I find I am enjoying more realistic career tonnage scores. My personal opinion is that the single ship contacts that spring up are way too generous and easy, so I ignore them completely. I will attack individual ships that I sight or detect while doing hydrophone checks. In spite of this, I still have good patrol tonnage, as I have a horseshoe in my back pocket when it comes to convoys. I usually have two or more convoy contacts that I am able to intercept and from which I can extract a few sinkings.

Also, by using SH3 Commanders' realistic career length option, my careers last from five to seven or eight patrols. This places me in the historical ranks of U-boat captains and their tonnage scores. In five careers played in LSH2015 so far, only one of them has scored high enough to be placed just under Otto Kretschmer for career score. This makes me happy enough as I wish to be a historical skipper, not an arcade hero.

There are other factors that help me to play this way. The H.sie mods replicate the early war torpedo unreliability, for example. Now that I am in June of 1943, it is much more difficult to attack convoys. I've been detected several times by what I assume to be ship-borne radar and forced to dive and evade before I could attack. A few times after sinking only one ship, I have broken contact with a convoy because the escorts are too strong and aggressive. I am thus savoring each hard won ton in a way more appreciatively than early war.

My practice is to play from 1939 to 1945 over a number of careers by using SH3 Commander's captain retirement option. When the first guy is killed or retired, I start a new career at that point in the war and carry on. Thus far I have survived from September of 1939 with each captain making a number of patrols and then being retired ashore by Commander. I am now on my way to intercept the second convoy of this patrol, on June 6th, 1943. If I survive, I am returning to Lorient as I only have five torpedoes left aboard.

CaptBones · 11-10-15, 12:41 PM

I've had a number of ships in LSH3 V15 break in half and/or explode and sink immediately (those don't leave any lifeboats or wreckage either). There have also been some that have listed, settled and burned without sinking (need a coup de gras by deck gun or a second torpedo). Some also list and settle by the head or the stern and sink slowly without any additional help.

But, I think that variety is a good thing. The USN did a very comprehensive study in 1942 of the sinking "mechanics" of merchant ships lost in the Battle of the Atlantic up to that time. Almost all of the sinkings were due to loss of stability, not due to flooding and happened within minutes of being hit. The major exception being tankers, which were mostly lost due to fire and subsequent structural failure leading to loss of stability or flooding.

OK...someone is bound to ask, "What's the difference between 'loss of stability' and 'flooding'?" Well, loss of stability is generally caused by flooding and inevitably leads to complete flooding, so one could make the argument that all ships sink due to flooding, even the tankers. But, the point being, that putting a hole in the side of a ship can cause loss of stability from "free surface" and/or "free communication". Free surface means a container, in this case a compartment in a ship, is partially filled with water that can "slosh" back and forth/from side to side. A cargo hold or engineering compartment in a ship that is partially filled with a moving water mass results in the movement of the center of gravity. When you add to that a big hole in the side of the ship, you also have "free communication", meaning the water can freely flow into and out of the partially flooded compartment...shifting both the center of gravity and center of buoyancy and generally leading to capsizing the ship.

As I said, I like that variety and I do agree that the tonnage "score" is more reasonable as well. Sink 'em all!

Sailor Steve · 11-11-15, 07:16 PM

I've just finished installing LSH, and when taking the Academy course on gunnery it seems to me like the ships are still using the stock "hit point" system. Every ship I shot took a handful of hits and then exploded and broke apart.

I'm not sure that's actually the case, but it seemed so at the time. We'll see how it goes later.

ChaosDuck7 · 11-12-15, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I've just finished installing LSH, and when taking the Academy course on gunnery it seems to me like the ships are still using the stock "hit point" system. Every ship I shot took a handful of hits and then exploded and broke apart.

I'm not sure that's actually the case, but it seemed so at the time. We'll see how it goes later.

Thats exactly what I noticed. It would certainly explain them exploding and instantly sinking. It doesnt seem like any "flooding" really takes place.

CaptBones · 11-12-15, 03:11 PM

Hi Steve,

It's probably not just your "deadeye" marksmanship; some do seem to be too easy. When I did the Naval Academy weapons exercises, I did have some ships explode and sink with a few well-aimed (or were they "lucky"?) shots. But, I also had some sink only after making many waterline hits.

Can't say there was any consistency either; I did the gunnery and torpedo training exercises several times and the exams twice (with and without using LSH3/SH3 CDR) and got different results every time.

It could be the old hit point system and it might make the shipping too easy to take down, but I think that just gives me more of a reason to use both LSH3 and GWX3. Some days I feel like just blowing things up and some days I don't...

Carry on "old salt"!

K-61 · 11-13-15, 12:57 PM

I had a "GWX moment" recently during an LSH2015 patrol. Late 1943 I got tucked into a fat convoy sailing north, to the west of Spain. Around CG15. I used a homing torpedo to take out one of the escorts and hit a couple of merchantmen. One freighter sunk but a T3 tanker wallowed about and over many hours slowly fell astern of the convoy. I surfaced just before sunrise and sailed after it, but the convoy was still close enough that one, then two, then three escorts broke away and hunted me. I took a pasting for hours, only to receive the ship sunk message while I was deep and evading. The initial attack took place around 22:00 the previous evening, so it was around ten hours that it took for that tanker to succumb.

I find that crippled ships can go on forever in calm seas, but higher sea states batter them and they will sink if you leave them long enough.

I noticed something very strange during a stormy encounter. I was up toward Iceland when a taskforce began to overhaul me. I submerged and lined up on the starboard beam, ahead of the group. As it sailed closer I could pick out a Bogue carrier and a Cleveland class cruiser. The Bogue was holding a steady course but the cruiser was "hound dogging" astern of the Bogue. I decided to try to sink the Bogue, so there would be no aircraft aloft to hunt for me. As I had a good lock on her, my torpedoes set and my position ideal and was just counting the seconds to launch, the Bogue began to list heavily and then it sank.

The cruiser then settled down on a steady course and I launched two electric torpedoes, which sailed harmlessly under her. The taskforce was unaware of my presence and sailed on obliviously. One of the escorts must have sunk while I was tracking the main ships, as after the encounter there were two sunken ship symbols on the map.

Something must be fubar in the routines. I also recently encountered a convoy in heavy weather in which one of the escorts was heeled well over and barely making any headway. Must be a glitch that reminds me of the bad old days when SH3 was still a new game with a lot of bugs.

10-31-15, 04:41 PM	#1
ChaosDuck7 Loader Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 87 Downloads: 107 Uploads: 0	Is it just me or do ships sink a LOT faster in LSH15 compared to GWX? I dont know if im just remembering it wrong but it seems like they dotn really flood "to death" in LSH, they just "die" and sink immedietly. I have the realistic ship sinking checked in the difficulty. Am I right on this or just imagining things?

11-01-15, 11:23 AM	#3
THEBERBSTER Growing Old Disgracefully Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Dibden Purlieu - Southampton Posts: 9,605 Downloads: 1123 Uploads: 0	Hi Guys I do not think that is unreasonable as a "critical hit" in the right place will do enough damage to sink the ship. If it happens too regularly in the game then that is a different matter. Peter __________________ LSH3-2015 <> TUTORIALS <> ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW <> ALL IN ONE PLACE SH4 <> TUTORIALS <> HOW TO DO IT <> INFORMATION <> DOWNLOAD LINKS SH5 <> TUTORIALS <> HOW TO DO IT <> INFORMATION <> DOWNLOAD LINKS Always Here To Help A Fellow 'Subber' \| Need An Answer to A Question Just Send Me A PM

11-01-15, 12:24 PM	#4
GT182 Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: New Castle of Delaware Posts: 3,231 Downloads: 658 Uploads: 0	They may take longer as the crews are trying hard to save them. __________________ Gary No Borders, No Language, No Culture =s No Country I'm a Deplorable, and proud of it.

11-10-15, 08:43 AM	#5
K-61 Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Ontario Posts: 795 Downloads: 39 Uploads: 0	I find they take a lot longer to sink, as well. I am also finding that I am having to sink even some of the smallest ships with multiple torpedoes. I think it ridiculous that a lousy 2,000 ton vessel can take three torpedoes distributed over the beam and keel over the course of hours in game time. It does feel strange as compared to GWX. On the other hand, I have recently enjoyed some one-shot successes with larger vessels that I expected I would need two or more to sink, including a C-3, for example. In balance, I find I am enjoying more realistic career tonnage scores. My personal opinion is that the single ship contacts that spring up are way too generous and easy, so I ignore them completely. I will attack individual ships that I sight or detect while doing hydrophone checks. In spite of this, I still have good patrol tonnage, as I have a horseshoe in my back pocket when it comes to convoys. I usually have two or more convoy contacts that I am able to intercept and from which I can extract a few sinkings. Also, by using SH3 Commanders' realistic career length option, my careers last from five to seven or eight patrols. This places me in the historical ranks of U-boat captains and their tonnage scores. In five careers played in LSH2015 so far, only one of them has scored high enough to be placed just under Otto Kretschmer for career score. This makes me happy enough as I wish to be a historical skipper, not an arcade hero. There are other factors that help me to play this way. The H.sie mods replicate the early war torpedo unreliability, for example. Now that I am in June of 1943, it is much more difficult to attack convoys. I've been detected several times by what I assume to be ship-borne radar and forced to dive and evade before I could attack. A few times after sinking only one ship, I have broken contact with a convoy because the escorts are too strong and aggressive. I am thus savoring each hard won ton in a way more appreciatively than early war. My practice is to play from 1939 to 1945 over a number of careers by using SH3 Commander's captain retirement option. When the first guy is killed or retired, I start a new career at that point in the war and carry on. Thus far I have survived from September of 1939 with each captain making a number of patrols and then being retired ashore by Commander. I am now on my way to intercept the second convoy of this patrol, on June 6th, 1943. If I survive, I am returning to Lorient as I only have five torpedoes left aboard. __________________

11-10-15, 12:41 PM	#6
CaptBones The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Rockton, IL Posts: 274 Downloads: 208 Uploads: 0	Yes and no... I've had a number of ships in LSH3 V15 break in half and/or explode and sink immediately (those don't leave any lifeboats or wreckage either). There have also been some that have listed, settled and burned without sinking (need a coup de gras by deck gun or a second torpedo). Some also list and settle by the head or the stern and sink slowly without any additional help. But, I think that variety is a good thing. The USN did a very comprehensive study in 1942 of the sinking "mechanics" of merchant ships lost in the Battle of the Atlantic up to that time. Almost all of the sinkings were due to loss of stability, not due to flooding and happened within minutes of being hit. The major exception being tankers, which were mostly lost due to fire and subsequent structural failure leading to loss of stability or flooding. OK...someone is bound to ask, "What's the difference between 'loss of stability' and 'flooding'?" Well, loss of stability is generally caused by flooding and inevitably leads to complete flooding, so one could make the argument that all ships sink due to flooding, even the tankers. But, the point being, that putting a hole in the side of a ship can cause loss of stability from "free surface" and/or "free communication". Free surface means a container, in this case a compartment in a ship, is partially filled with water that can "slosh" back and forth/from side to side. A cargo hold or engineering compartment in a ship that is partially filled with a moving water mass results in the movement of the center of gravity. When you add to that a big hole in the side of the ship, you also have "free communication", meaning the water can freely flow into and out of the partially flooded compartment...shifting both the center of gravity and center of buoyancy and generally leading to capsizing the ship. As I said, I like that variety and I do agree that the tonnage "score" is more reasonable as well. Sink 'em all!

10-31-15, 07:52 PM	#2
KingOfNothing22 Nub Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4 Downloads: 175 Uploads: 0	I've noticed it too. Sometimes they do take quite a while, listing and slowing down and stuff usually before another eel finishes them off, and then other times one hit causes them to break in half and sink in seconds, even with the flak gun!

11-11-15, 07:16 PM	#7
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	I've just finished installing LSH, and when taking the Academy course on gunnery it seems to me like the ships are still using the stock "hit point" system. Every ship I shot took a handful of hits and then exploded and broke apart. I'm not sure that's actually the case, but it seemed so at the time. We'll see how it goes later. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

11-12-15, 03:11 PM	#9
CaptBones The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Rockton, IL Posts: 274 Downloads: 208 Uploads: 0	Yes...no... Hi Steve, It's probably not just your "deadeye" marksmanship; some do seem to be too easy. When I did the Naval Academy weapons exercises, I did have some ships explode and sink with a few well-aimed (or were they "lucky"?) shots. But, I also had some sink only after making many waterline hits. Can't say there was any consistency either; I did the gunnery and torpedo training exercises several times and the exams twice (with and without using LSH3/SH3 CDR) and got different results every time. It could be the old hit point system and it might make the shipping too easy to take down, but I think that just gives me more of a reason to use both LSH3 and GWX3. Some days I feel like just blowing things up and some days I don't... Carry on "old salt"!

11-13-15, 12:57 PM	#10
K-61 Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Ontario Posts: 795 Downloads: 39 Uploads: 0	I had a "GWX moment" recently during an LSH2015 patrol. Late 1943 I got tucked into a fat convoy sailing north, to the west of Spain. Around CG15. I used a homing torpedo to take out one of the escorts and hit a couple of merchantmen. One freighter sunk but a T3 tanker wallowed about and over many hours slowly fell astern of the convoy. I surfaced just before sunrise and sailed after it, but the convoy was still close enough that one, then two, then three escorts broke away and hunted me. I took a pasting for hours, only to receive the ship sunk message while I was deep and evading. The initial attack took place around 22:00 the previous evening, so it was around ten hours that it took for that tanker to succumb. I find that crippled ships can go on forever in calm seas, but higher sea states batter them and they will sink if you leave them long enough. I noticed something very strange during a stormy encounter. I was up toward Iceland when a taskforce began to overhaul me. I submerged and lined up on the starboard beam, ahead of the group. As it sailed closer I could pick out a Bogue carrier and a Cleveland class cruiser. The Bogue was holding a steady course but the cruiser was "hound dogging" astern of the Bogue. I decided to try to sink the Bogue, so there would be no aircraft aloft to hunt for me. As I had a good lock on her, my torpedoes set and my position ideal and was just counting the seconds to launch, the Bogue began to list heavily and then it sank. The cruiser then settled down on a steady course and I launched two electric torpedoes, which sailed harmlessly under her. The taskforce was unaware of my presence and sailed on obliviously. One of the escorts must have sunk while I was tracking the main ships, as after the encounter there were two sunken ship symbols on the map. Something must be fubar in the routines. I also recently encountered a convoy in heavy weather in which one of the escorts was heeled well over and barely making any headway. Must be a glitch that reminds me of the bad old days when SH3 was still a new game with a lot of bugs. __________________