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Old 11-26-2018, 05:56 AM   #1
techsubdiver
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Default Will modders manage to get Cold Waters somewhat realistically?

Hello Subsim, you´re an awesome community here!

I´ve just got Cold Waters as the trailers looked promising. This game looks and sounds so beautiful and with the playable subs mod so many juicy submarines are added that I initially though a dream is about to come true.

However spending some years on a Navy boat myself and being an avid reader of submarine related stuff I simply can´t get over some of the unrealistic (plain said simply stupid) mechanics of this game. This sounds very rude but it can be frustrating when you basically have no means to apply real world tactics to this game and teenagers in the forums believe that creating knuckle spams for 10 minutes is the way how submarine warfare works. I am about to give it up as sometimes it gives me the impression I´m playing one of this mobile games, and no I do not need hardcore sim aspects to have fun.

Being repeatedly impressed what Subsim modders achieved with several subsims (Silent Hunter 5: at release=trainwreck now with WOTS=dream) I asked myself if modders ever will be able to turn this game into something like Sub Command or Dangerous Waters. I am not talking about recreating the interfaces of the mentioned games but simply recreating this "authentic subsim feel" Sonalyst always managed to get right. Is it possible, is the game accessible to modding? It would be wonderful if this could happen.
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Old 11-26-2018, 09:49 AM   #2
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Probably not. The mechanics of the game are hard coded. Modders can borrow existing sub frames and change their appearance a bit, can adjust sonar sensitivities, torpedo run times, speeds etc, but whether a torpedo explodes when in proximity to the target or such characteristics like the behavior of the enemy vessels or motion mechanics are not user adjustable.

Those looking for a fast paced shoot the enemy game in realtime are generally quite happy with what they purchased. Those looking for an accurate modelling of submarine operations, tactics or more than a crude approximation of a proper simulation end up pulling their hair out.

Sim-junkies can be anal retentive. Not reading (understanding) product descriptions and failing to account for the clear distinction between a game and a simulation leads to a lot of angst. Subsims have run their course. The attention span of modern customers has waned over time and very few are now interested in performing the 13 steps to identify a target, compute a TMA and then use math to compute a firing solution. Assigning a crew member to clean the head is completely out of the question.

Killerfish Games seems to have a decent handle on their target consumer base. Sure there could be some improvements to the game mechanics and I suppose a broadening of what can be modified by control files, but on the whole, this product is not meant to appease the sim-heads and the underwater first person shooter types are for the most part happy that they just have to point, shoot, run away and hide.
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Old 11-26-2018, 01:53 PM   #3
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CDR DPH is right. I had a long(er) response typed out, but decided I'll just take my "nickle for everytime someone..."

Realize first that SC/DW and CW are not even on the same level, because they aren't supposed to be as stated by the Devs multiple times.

Anyways welcome to Subsim! What boat were you on?
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Old 11-26-2018, 02:02 PM   #4
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I don't agree with the above poster at all. My point would be proven I think IF Sonalysts would come here today and announce that they have an updated Dangerous waters game with new graphics engine....what would the reaction be??? Given that...here's what I do, I run 3 separate games of DW linked in multi-player as different stations on my new rig and two old dinosaur machines... I also run cold waters on a laptop (using the 40 inch big screen as monitor) in mission editor mode without enemy subs and without interfaces for my 3d and atmosphere element . I even match my CW maneuvers with what happens in DW. Works great for an immersive session.

forgot to mention I use 2 old crt's for Russian sonar and stations that don't fit wide screen. oh...and I use voice commands as well.

Last edited by Badger343rd; 11-26-2018 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 11-26-2018, 05:52 PM   #5
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techsubdive!
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Old 11-28-2018, 02:14 AM   #6
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Yes when Sonalyst would return and announce a game I probably would loose my mind and declare the specific date to be the SCS day from now on.

The subsims with TMA I know come the ability to leave it to your crew. I´ve started modern subsims with Dangerous Waters without knowing much and used the AI assists from day one and it helped me alot to understand this game and submarine combat by observing the AI and I still use it as sometimes it just want to focus on commanding or sonars. Silent Hunter and manual solutions I use modded SH from day one without knowing much about doing solutions and also used the assists to do auto targeting and navigation and still use it to some degree. In my opinion getting into DW and SH is easier and more accessible than getting into Cold Waters, as CW comes with many specific game designs not being logical or obvious to common sense, using real world submarine tactics may even lead to a quicker death in this game. Accessibility is not contrary to realism and complexity as DW and SH show. In the opposite dumbing down a game into extreme doesn´t make it mandatory more accessible like Cold Waters shows

I still hope that modders may find means to modify CW. Hearing about something being "hardcoded" is also getting somewhat old as I heard it a thousand times in the SH and DW community until a smart modder came by and found a way to change it.

Last edited by techsubdiver; 11-28-2018 at 02:30 AM.
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Old 11-28-2018, 01:59 PM   #7
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Quote:
In my opinion getting into DW and SH is easier and more accessible than getting into Cold Waters, as CW comes with many specific game designs not being logical or obvious to common sense, using real world submarine tactics may even lead to a quicker death in this game.
Can you expand on this? Having played the mentioned games and being able to contrast them with my own first hand experience, I'd say all three hit as close to the mark as they can. Sonalysts can hit closer only because they are a contractor for the Navy. SC and DW were originally designed as training aides for the USN. CW makes use of excellent resources available to the public, but I will say sometimes the AI can be off.

Quote:
I still hope that modders may find means to modify CW. Hearing about something being "hardcoded" is also getting somewhat old as I heard it a thousand times in the SH and DW community until a smart modder came by and found a way to change it.
Modders have been modifying CW since release, everything that is modable is a simple text based file. KFG out of the gate with CW wanted it to be as modder friendly as possible while still protecting their intellectual property. If hearing about something being hardcoded is getting old, feel free to jump in and prove people wrong. That's just part of modding in my mind, something is hardcoded until proven otherwise.

Maybe it would help if you articulated your argument and shared your background with us. Personally I'm always glad to have another vet on the forums.
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Old 11-30-2018, 06:11 AM   #8
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Don´t think this has something to do with Killerfish not being a Navy Contractor as today there is plenty enough free OSINT to do a decent subsim. It is simply the already mentioned fact that Cold Waters aims to be an action game in the spirit of submarine action movies like Red October, made for people who always wanted to do those sub knife fights were the hero captain does that cool full rudder move in the very last moment to evade a torpedo by an inch and the sea being full with torps demanding some sub acrobatics from you. Sure it isn´t marketed as "arcade" or "quick action" as this would deter people from getting it in the first place as some enjoy the impression to experience the real deal but without getting too involved. Compared to the racing genre, Cold Waters is a "Need of Speed" of sub sims, modelling real cars, acting and sounding like cars but with some over the top action stuff and a simplistic physics/driving engine.

While the lack of more mod support may be an important factor why specifics can´t be changed in CW there are probably still ways to improve respectively change the realism aspect. The question is if there is even an great interest in making Cold Waters realistic as most who enjoy this game (and probably mod it because of it) may prefer this simplistic action approach which is probably the reason why most work focuses on additional subs and campaigns and not on making authentic torpedo evasion or detection ranges happen. Flight sim modders probably wouldn´t approach an air combat action game like Ace Combat and try to make it realistic because the game´s nature itself comes with alot of limitation concerning this goal. They would stay with Falcon 4.0 or other sims that already come with fundamentals like the ability to model complex aspects of aerial combat. However this are asumptions and I would be very happy to be proven wrong by the CW modding community. But chances are 0.1% slim that this will be ever able to replace Dangerous Waters so at the moment my tip is to keep in mind for what CW was made for and enjoy it for it. Wait for an adequate replacement when it comes to sims like DW, until then stay with them.

My inner narrowband shows a faded line on the bearing of Sonalyst Combat Studios, planning to bring a new sim in the next years
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Old 11-30-2018, 08:17 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techsubdiver View Post
In my opinion getting into DW and SH is easier and more accessible than getting into Cold Waters, as CW comes with many specific game designs not being logical or obvious to common sense, using real world submarine tactics may even lead to a quicker death in this game.
I have to disagree with this statement. CW is much easier to get into than DW or SH. However, if someone had already played DW and SH, maaaaaaybe getting into CW would be less accessible, but as an extensive DW player, I had no issues getting into CW. CW is very much "here's some buttons" and you can start playing and have fun. DW takes a long time just to get used to how everything works, never mind playing the game effectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by techsubdiver View Post
I still hope that modders may find means to modify CW. Hearing about something being "hardcoded" is also getting somewhat old as I heard it a thousand times in the SH and DW community until a smart modder came by and found a way to change it.
Unfortunately, yes, some things are, for all intents and purposes, completely hard coded and not changeable without access to the source code. You cannot go from machine code to editable code that is easy for humans to understand.
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Old 12-02-2018, 03:37 AM   #10
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I see threads come up from time to time about how CW isn’t a hard-core submarine warfare simulator. Well it isn’t, it’s a game - but it’s a game that hard-core submarine warfare simulator players (and even veteran submariners) enjoy playing.

No, I can’t use historical or currently known tactics to the same effect in the game - but I can discover and develop my own tactics. That’s something I really like about CW. I think the sim/game balance is just about perfect here.
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Old 12-02-2018, 10:42 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FPSchazly View Post
I have to disagree with this statement. CW is much easier to get into than DW or SH. However, if someone had already played DW and SH, maaaaaaybe getting into CW would be less accessible, but as an extensive DW player, I had no issues getting into CW. CW is very much "here's some buttons" and you can start playing and have fun. DW takes a long time just to get used to how everything works, never mind playing the game effectively.

Unfortunately, yes, some things are, for all intents and purposes, completely hard coded and not changeable without access to the source code. You cannot go from machine code to editable code that is easy for humans to understand.
I of couse respect your opinion about the accessibilty matter. Different opinons are fine. But I still stand by mine and I am to 100% sure that this has nothing to do with playing Dangerous Waters before jumping into CW. Me and my buddy we both started play Dangerous Waters and not even took a look at the manual and zero knowledge on how stuff works. We jumped right into the subs, turned most AI crews on and it worked like a charm by observing how the AI handles the station and checking the drop down menues and interfaces. Sure we got hit sometimes but the replay function perfectly showed you what happened there as in DW there are no ASW assets that magically spawn out of thin air to prosecute you, but assets you can really observe, how they react to your or their allies actions. Buddy also played a mission in true mode to check on how things work and we´re spent our first exciting Dangerous Waters Saturday having big fun without ever taking a glance at the manual. The included wiki about every weapon and asset also was very helpful.

Now playing CW end up on one day with accidentaly drive full speed frontal into a creeping modern OPFOR sub on the campaign map but spawning right behind him without him being aware of anything. On the other day I would ambush a (loud) surface in an high tech seawolf without moving on the strategic layer (which translates then to creeping 5kts ingame) in best sea conditions just to spawn directly in active sonar and prosecution range of their warships (no matter what distance settings you chose) with torps being dropped right in the first minute at me. In other cases also engaging a surface group at slow speed on the map but being prosecuted by a magically spawned ASW helo or plane instantly which homes for my location from minute 1 without having any clue why this is happening and no way to check that. Reporting this on the forums usually end up by people come up with the wildest theories and others recommend you to change some ini settings or whatever but nobody has a clue why certain things happen. Saw this countless times for streamers happen which also were left without any logic explanation. I spent more time to reading explanations on forums about what specific file values may cause ingame as playing the game. Nothing I would call accessible.

For that I ALWAYS would recommend Dangerous Waters instead of Cold Waters to people who want to get into an accessible submarine simulation as it comes with everything you need to get going: a good AI support for everything that requires some digging and alot of transparency to figure things out and everything what happens is accessible even to uneducated common logic. Things I unfortunately cannot say about Cold Waters. Sure if somebody would ask me for an game where you can shoot alot of torps from the bat, evade 10 torps like a badass, or do knuckle Mantras for stress relief I probably would consider recommending CW.

Anyways I have no intent to make CW look bat as it was definitely my fault for not checking thoroughly for that Cold Waters aims for action not realism as I was probably insantly putting on rose-tinted glasses when discovering that there is a new modern subsim on the store. Just had the hope that mods would provide a solution.

Last edited by techsubdiver; 12-02-2018 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:04 PM   #12
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I like CW and DW. CW is just more fun and a bit easier. CWis really nice on the eyes and more modern though still a bit dated. A mod did address that though. DW is much more like a sub. Lot's of work, all detailed, and requiring quite a bit of patience. It's a LOT nicer however. Multi-player, great scenarios, seems pretty realistic, but ... NO NUKEs. Kind of takes the air out of a sub-sim. Fanatics are still pretty much WW2 and/or diesels. Now World of Warships (which I don't play does have a 'gaming' submarine, apparently. CW wins all hands down in that realism comparison. Now, No Man's Sky just added an underwater adventure module. It's not even a game, but still fun. Plotting an attack in CW and living to tell about it is pretty fun and doesn't take days.
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Old 12-13-2018, 10:09 AM   #13
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Having no real clue of submarines I always thought better to stay away from Dangerous Waters. After reading this thread I gave it a try, yes gfx are bit dated but I can confirm it is in fact not that hard to get into the game and There is a feature called autocrew on off which takes handles stuff for you in case you don´t know and you can even watch them doing the work. In cold waters it super annoyed me to get detected often instantly and don´t know the reason without an explanation coming to my mind. Also this torpedo circus. Not so in DW, great game. Dw is probably the best subgame I have played, thanks for mentioning!
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