Pro and contra of dongle copy protection

[porphy]

This is extracted as a separate discussion from the SBP pre-order thread.

Skybird


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The dongle is the best copy protection I have tried so far.

I'm surprised that not more game developers uses this way to protect their games, at least for games that are a bit less mainstream and are supposed to be played more than a few weeks to beat them. One dongle can hold all the licences for your games. Also it is a good long time solution as you always can offer the game for a new download and the customer can make as many back up copies they want.

Every copy protection method has its problems, even the dongle, but from a customers view it has the least practical problems as it never interferes with any other computer or hardware stuff you do. Ok, it can in rare cases malfunction, but eSim games have top notch support to quickly solve something like that. Perhaps that's way some companies don't want the dongle, they want a fire and forget copy protection. Which of course is a pipe dream.

From a producers perspective the dongle has one outstanding attractive trait as it, as far as I know, never have been cracked, which is very unique.

cheers porphy

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by porphy

The dongle is the best copy protection I have tried so far.

I'm surprised that not more game developers uses this way to protect their games, at least for games that are a bit less mainstream and are supposed to be played more than a few weeks to beat them. One dongle can hold all the licences for your games. Also it is a good long time solution as you always can offer the game for a new download and the customer can make as many back up copies they want.

Every copy protection method has its problems, even the dongle, but from a customers view it has the least practical problems as it never interferes with any other computer or hardware stuff you do. Ok, it can in rare cases malfunction, but eSim games have top notch support to quickly solve something like that. Perhaps that's way some companies don't want the dongle, they want a fire and forget copy protection. Which of course is a pipe dream.

From a producers perspective the dongle has one outstanding attractive trait as it, as far as I know, never have been cracked, which is very unique.

cheers porphy

Gotta dissagree with you on a couple of points. First off dongles add to the cost of a product. Second they each take up a slot on the computer, and with multiple dongles they are easy to missplace.

Also dongles are not invulnerable forms of copy protection, they have been broken in the past (particularly corporate programs that use dongles, and ones far more sophisticated the one SBP uses), but the groups that do the breaking have to have an interest in doing it. That in a nutshell is why SBP hasn't been broken yet. Not because it can't be done, but because its such a niche game nobody (with the ability) cares to bother.

Last I dont want to think of the nightmare if the entire gaming industry used dongles. One dongle is manageable, 2 is tollerable, a dozen or more is not. Generaly speaking you wouldnt be able to transfer licenses between dongles otherwise it makes them very vulnerable to being bypassed/duplicated. Most commercial dongles use unwriteable memory or/and other hardware and individual to a specific program. An encrypted key on a flash drive is as easy to bypass as that on a cd or dvd.

Typicaly dongles (the sophisticated kind) in the past have been limited to high end professional software worth 1000s of dollars. They are also the bane of computer support personal.

[porphy]

Gotta dissagree with you on a couple of points.

Sure, your welcome

First off dongles add to the cost of a product.

True, but you do get a non interfering and less intrusive copy protection compared to a lot of the others out there, those qualities are what quite a few customers say they want in the first place from a copy protection, if one is deemed necessary.

Second they each take up a slot on the computer, and with multiple dongles they are easy to missplace.

Yes, and a dvd takes up the only slot in the player...


Most users have more usb slots free for dongle use, and shifting a few dongles around won't wear out or risk any game media. On the other hand people do seem to loose or destroy their game dvds a lot as well.
I don't really see why dongles should be more prone to misplacing than other things. Their use is not like a flash memory which you bring with you to work or to friends. If one keep loosing stuff it's probably not the dongles fault...

Also dongles are not invulnerable forms of copy protection, they have been broken in the past (particularly corporate programs that use dongles, and ones far more sophisticated the one SBP uses), but the groups that do the breaking have to have an interest in doing it. That in a nutshell is why SBP hasn't been broken yet. Not because it can't be done, but because its such a niche game nobody (with the ability) cares to bother.

I can't see that this would be a good argument against the dongle though. True, everything can be cracked but I think it is quite clear that the codemeter dongle is much harder to crack than many other copy protection schemes out there, which makes it even a better choice for niche games. I bet even a niche product as SB Pro PE would be cracked by now if this wasn't the case. You can illegally download SB Pro PE right now if you want to, so it's been floating around in pirate waters for quite a long time, but it's still unbroken.

Wibu systems has also offered money to anyone able to get through the dongle protection on a few occasions. Of course this is a bit of media stunt, but you don't see any mainstream game protection even offering that challenge...

Last I dont want to think of the nightmare if the entire gaming industry used dongles. One dongle is manageable, 2 is tollerable, a dozen or more is not.

I said it I was surprised that not more developers of less mainstream games used it. Even if the whole industry used dongles, why do you think managing all your game dvds is less nightmarish than have a collection of dongles, should it come to that? If this was the case I'm sure one would have the ability to store licences from many companies on one or a few capable and secure dongles. With the dongle you can have as many backup copies of the game as you want.

Generaly speaking you wouldnt be able to transfer licenses between dongles otherwise it makes them very vulnerable to being bypassed/duplicated. Most commercial dongles use unwriteable memory or/and other hardware and individual to a specific program. An encrypted key on a flash drive is as easy to bypass as that on a cd or dvd.

Well, I don't know the details of the dongle hardware but the Wibu one uses a special chip, but is recognized as a usb mas storage device, and it communicates through its own software. The Wibu dongle that protects SB Pro PE can, according to the company, hold 1000 licences on one stick... and you can already have different licenses from different vendors on the same dongle. The licenses can be configured in a number of ways, even controlling what version of the program you are entitled to run.

Typicaly dongles (the sophisticated kind) in the past have been limited to high end professional software worth 1000s of dollars. They are also the bane of computer support personal.

I don't know why they are supposed to be a problem to computer support personal. Maybe you mean that if you have problems running the software or getting the dongle to work, support will be swamped by requests that are hard to troubleshoot? My impression is that the codemeter dongle is less an offender than most drm solutions in that respect.

The dongle isn't perfect, but given the options I prefer this compared to crappy dvd drm checks, online and restricted activations, keeping track of no-cd solutions for every game patch when you run in to trouble, intrusive protection that makes it a gamble to upgrade your hardware or changing OS. I haven't tried Steam myself, but I guess it's not as secure as many developers would like...

Cheers Porphy

[Lieste]

Yes the Wibu/Codemeter dongle is a piece of hardware that supports software, as is a mouse, a graphics card, a sound card, a HDD or a joystick.

It differs in that its only function is DRM, but there is no requirement to purchase 'one with each game' any more than the other listed hardware. It also is no harder to install than any of these.

As it is supplied by a company (Wibu) the support issues regarding configuration etc that do fall slightly outside the normal routine can be dealt with by the Wibu people, in the same way that support issues for the other hardware are dealt with in the final instance by the manufacturer (or the chipset manufacturer).

SBP may be a relatively niche product, but the Wibu devices have not been successfully cracked although there have been a number of hacking competitions organised (officially) to do just that - lessons learnt from these have been used by Wibu to enhance the encryption/protection schemes. This is far better than any of the other DRM solutions that only delay cracking, or can be bypassed trivially.

Strengths:
Licensing can be flexible and open (it need not be but it can), SBP allows installation on any machine you like, and as many users as there are primary + secondary licenses can link to the single codemeter device and play. There is no activation/deactivation dance, no phoning home, no unavailability due to server overload/outage.
The DRM is transparent while working - there is no restriction on optical devices, copying softwares, no noticeable system load during operation.
The DRM can be used for online sales, just exchange a small codemeter control file which when returned contains the new licenses, and the protected software can be easily distributed, even by anonymous download without additional risk of losses.
One USB stick can handle many licenses, using different licensing models per product, and products from many vendors.

Downsides:
It will cost the end user (or possibly a forward thinking developer/publisher) about $15 to $40 to obtain one, less for larger orders (i.e. central purchasing and distribution) more if you purchase one without promotions and as standalone hardware.
It takes up one USB slot - but is quite happy on a Hub or extension, which is more than I can say for my external USB HDD.


This isn't one of those ridiculous Autodesk dongles that clutter up the back of many machines, that are single vendor, single product and don't offer any real protection for the software. I've seen those, and they *would* be a royal pain in the bum.

[Skybird]

1. That a company wants it's product protected in any (but efficient) way, is a legitimate request of theirs.

2. There are several ways to acchieve that, that are more potentially threatening or causing risks or damages, than the WIBU dongle.

3. eSim asked people what they would prefer in methods. The alternatives lost, the dongle won. It was a clear majority vote, and esim decided on the basis of this, and probably also on the basis of the efficiency of the dongle protection.

4. In case of SBP, after three years the chosen solution has proven itself in any way. It woreks well for the producer, for the customers, and it acchieves what it should acchieve.

Story told!

[NeonSamurai]

It doesn't bother me that SBP uses a dongle, I won't ever be buying it as its way beyond my price range. I do care however if dongles went main stream as I don't want to deal with a stack of the stupid things (and I guarantee they wont all be using the same dongle maker, the big distributors will probably sub contract their own brand.). I am pointing out that these things aren't a magic anti piracy bullet.

As for these things not being hacked, well I would bet money if they were used on some front line games they would get broken pretty fast (it may take a while for the first game as they would need to figure out how it works, but once they do the rest will fall very fast). Hacker competitions don't prove anything as your only going to attract the amateurs. The so called pros wont show up as they don't want to take the chance of being identified and then linked to one of the piracy groups. No matter what, the executable and other files where the security code is embedded are vulnerable as that code can be stripped out one way or another (or the executable rebuilt).

As for why the main groups that enable game piracy haven't bothered with SBP the reasons quite simple. First of the whole thing to these groups is pretty much a game/hobby. There are specific rules, and a score is even kept. They don't make any money from doing it, it in fact costs them money to. The prize is prestige and infamy, which is why they play the game. SBP is a very niche game that most people haven't heard about, and the demand for it is very low. As such breaking it doesn't offer much in the way of a prize for the effort of breaking a new (and highly uncommon) type of protection. Same goes for Wibu/Codemeter who is also unheard of in gaming. Give them reason to though and I'm sure it will happen. I mean they have broken every single other kind of mainstream heavy duty copy protection.

As for dvd vs dongle well a couple of things, first a dvd is harder to loose then a dongle (I am forever misplacing my damn usb flash drive). Also in my country I have the right to duplicate and emulate (and break if i can't emulate it) any software I own. As such I tend to use virtual disks on a virtual drive for the games I own so I don't have to fiddle around with original physical dvds getting damaged. Also you could be an unlucky person which doesn't have any easily accessible usb slots in which case changing dongles would be a problem. Also you may not have enough spare slots, for example my laptop if I was using a 4 port hub (I actually use a 7 port) would be completely filled (mouse, keyboard, joystick, printer, laptop cooler/mp3 player connection, external HD) would use up the 6 total ports (3-1 on the laptop and the 4 ports on the hub). Also what is the life span of a usb dongle?

As for why they are a pain for corporate use? well they are expensive, most of them have to be attached to the computer that will be using the program, they have tended to be single license single computer single program (god help you if you have 2 or more programs each needing one dongle attached). They also tended to get lost, stolen and or broken and need replacing (more expense). This is why a lot of corporations when dealing with them ended up using a broken executable.


Anyhow I'll stop here as I'm dragging the thread off topic. I just had to state that I don't think dongles are the magic anti piracy bullet some seem to think it is. I also don't want to dig to much further into software piracy (I know what I know cause it use to be my job to as a former 'White Hat'). Feel free to respond though if you wish

[Lieste]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

I do care however if dongles went main stream as I don't want to deal with a stack of the stupid things (and I guarantee they wont all be using the same dongle maker, the big distributors will probably sub contract their own brand.).

Which just demonstrates (if true) how stupid the software industry is - I don't actually think this is likely though - they don't tend to manufacture graphics cards or mice/joysticks to support their software, and buy DRM solutions off the peg already.

As for dvd vs dongle well a couple of things, first a dvd is harder to loose then a dongle (I am forever misplacing my damn usb flash drive).

My Codemeter 'lives' with my PC most of the time. My 'regular' USB stick I keep on my keyring - I generally need my keys if I'm out, and if I need my 'regular files' it helps if I have them with me as well.

Also you may not have enough spare slots, for example my laptop if I was using a 4 port hub (I actually use a 7 port) would be completely filled (mouse, keyboard, joystick, printer, laptop cooler/mp3 player connection, external HD) would use up the 6 total ports (3-1 on the laptop and the 4 ports on the hub).

And while you are playing an entertainment product you need the printer why? Also don't laptops come with functional if not optimal keyboards and pointing devices already? Isn't an MP3 player not strictly essential during game play as well...

Also what is the life span of a usb dongle?

I've had mine for at least 3 years with no problems - and mine was one of the early ones with the 'hot' firmware, which caused some initial problems. A firmware update reduced power requirements (and improved reliability apparently).

As for why they are a pain for corporate use? well they are expensive, most of them have to be attached to the computer that will be using the program, they have tended to be single license single computer single program (god help you if you have 2 or more programs each needing one dongle attached). They also tended to get lost, stolen and or broken and need replacing (more expense). This is why a lot of corporations when dealing with them ended up using a broken executable.

So one that is cheap, can be installed either as a USB device or an PCI card on a 'server' within the network, and can serve multi-vendor, multi-product, multi-license software would be bad why?

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by Lieste

Which just demonstrates (if true) how stupid the software industry is - I don't actually think this is likely though - they don't tend to manufacture graphics cards or mice/joysticks to support their software, and buy DRM solutions off the peg already.

I said they would sub contract out for it (and there will be more then one flavor of dongle and different dongle companies if it goes mainstream), its also common for the DRM to be customized to the publisher and the publishing companies usually don't play nice with each other. Also with the pirate groups actively breaking the dongles protection new types of dongles would be released with new hardware which would probably mean multiple dongles for older games as publishing houses wont bother patching games that arnt making much money to work with the latest dongle.

My Codemeter 'lives' with my PC most of the time. My 'regular' USB stick I keep on my keyring - I generally need my keys if I'm out, and if I need my 'regular files' it helps if I have them with me as well.

Thats fine if you have only one dongle, but if they are used main stream you will absolutly have far more then just one of them to deal with. That is when they become a real pain in the butt and you start misplacing them.

And while you are playing an entertainment product you need the printer why? Also don't laptops come with functional if not optimal keyboards and pointing devices already? Isn't an MP3 player not strictly essential during game play as well...

Its an example how on a lot of computers usb space isnt redibly accessable or always available. Also have you ever used a laptop for gaming? Laptops do not have "optimal keyboards and pointing devices", the keyboards are barely useful for text processing and very cramped, Touch pads are awkward to use normaly and utterly worthless for gaming (especialy when using the keyboard at the same time). Also I personaly use a monitor with my laptop when gaming, which makes using the laptop's touchpad and keyboard nigh impossible without having to put the monitor off to the side and play sideways.

I've had mine for at least 3 years with no problems - and mine was one of the early ones with the 'hot' firmware, which caused some initial problems. A firmware update reduced power requirements (and improved reliability apparently).

Im thinking a bit more long term. Heck i play games to this day that are 20+ years old going back almost to the dawn of computing.

So one that is cheap, can be installed either as a USB device or an PCI card on a 'server' within the network, and can serve multi-vendor, multi-product, multi-license software would be bad why?

I've never seen ones like that used in a commercial setting, but honestly on a large network I would not want it. Can you imagine half the programs (lets say 4 programs) being used on say 50-200 computers over a single network, each program requiring one dongle attached to a server? Depending on how often each dongle had to communicate with each computer using the program, and how much data it would need to send back and forth each time, it could suck up a large amount of bandwidth on the network. I'm also not sure there is a dongle that could handle that kind of usage. On top of it you might even need a specific server just to handle all the copy protection requests. This is exactly why most large corporations get special corporate versions of the software, that dont have all the restrictions and other crap that most copy protections do. Otherwise the overhead and additional cost gets rediculous.