Battle tactics, if you're the weaker sub?

Stewy1 · 05-11-19, 03:44 AM

G'day guys,

I tried an experiment, where I was in the noisier, slower, less manoeuvrable sub (a Delta SSBN) and I ran an experiment where I had to transit through an area where a stronger sub (in this case, a Sturgeon) was lurking...

I was deep, at 3kts, but eventually, there's going to be a TIW, out of the blue...(it turned out I was thumped by the Sturgeon...)

If you're in the weaker boat, do you have 'snapshots' pre-prepared when you're patrolling? What's the best range/time to enable them? Do you let loose ASW missiles, or just let torpedoes go in a spread?

Curious to hear your thoughts!

Stew

p7p8 · 05-11-19, 04:15 AM

Sturgeon is much older submarine than Delta IV

Speed difference is only 1 kts
Turn radius 500 for both submarines.

noise lavels at 0, 5, 10, 15 kts

Sturg 63 72 76 78
Delta 64 71 74 75

(noise levels from old data)

Weapon:

Sturg
Mark 48 mod 1 - range 14/21 nmi

Delta IV
UGST - range 16/21.5 nmi
SS-N-27 ASW (SUBROC) - range 27 nmi

It means you compares very similar submarines (in case of duel)
So where is your problem?

Stewy1 · 05-11-19, 04:29 AM

Looks like I've got more training to do then!

Thanks P7 for your answer. What about the sensor difference between the two boats?

I'll rephrase the question - what do you do when you get a TIW, out of the blue and it's a complete surprise?

Shoot a spread? When should you enable them? Shoot ASW missiles? or just focus on evading?

Cheers for your help,
Stew

p7p8 · 05-11-19, 05:18 AM

It's not easy to answer. You should always use your sub advantages over enemy sub disadvantages

Playing againstAI is also completly different than vs human. AI is like not very smart cheater

For example:
Tracking AI sub is usually very easy but tracking player sub is not.

For me comparisoning noise levels is common mistake. It doesn't really matter because as you wrote in first post, you knew somewhere was Sturgeon - so you decreased speed to 3 kts. What was Sturgeon speed? 10 kts?
I mean: if someone make ambush for transiting sub, almost always can be very quiet.
Problem is when you have to run fast (you are part of screen of convoy moving 15 kts) and on your route are submarines at very low speed - almost undetectable.

So, your noise level is not crucial, but yout maximum tactical speed and firepower (good torpedoes or wide weapon variety)

When you launch torpedoes on enemy direction he have to evade and he cannot track you like before. So it's good idea. After this you should increase speed (enemy probably is deaf at this moment*) and change course: move away from enemy torpedoes "interception point"

* high tactical speed allows to run away while tracking enemy

Check UNSI REFERENCE in game - there are informations about sensors

Stewy1 · 05-11-19, 05:48 AM

Thanks P7 - I appreciate your answers a lot. Looks like I need to practise a little more!

I think also going active (when there's a TIW) would 'level' the playing field when dealing with an ambushing sub - I need to practise with that scenario too.

Cheers for your help P7,
Stew

ET2SN · 05-11-19, 11:28 AM

OK, I get what you're asking but you need to understand the difference between attack subs and boomers.

Boomers hide.

It was what they were designed to do. Find a large chunk of ocean with nothing in it and stay there. If something else shows up, leave as soon as its practical. If you need to transit an area where you could be detected, get some escorts to help you out or wait until the bad guys get fed up and leave. You're too big to dog fight anything.
The same idea applies to the USS Jimmy Carter. It was never designed to fight a battle. That isn't its mission.

So, what about a Kilo vs an attack boat? Use what you've got. You don't need as much draft, for starters. The Kilo was designed mostly for littoral waters. Find an island or some shore line and let that shallow draft work for you.

Think about what the other guy has to deal with to get a shot at you. Unless he wants to torpedo a sand bar or a muddy bottom, he'll have to go to (basically) PD to launch a fish. That's the whole trick, force the other guy to throw away his advantages. If you force him to go shallow, he winds up in tougher conditions and his speed gets limited due to the depth.

Stewy1 · 05-12-19, 04:36 AM

Thanks for the helpful answer, ET, I appreciate it.

I'll keep training!

Stew

05-11-19, 03:44 AM	#1
Stewy1 Girt by Sea Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Red Route 1 Posts: 363 Downloads: 131 Uploads: 34	Battle tactics, if you're the weaker sub? G'day guys, I tried an experiment, where I was in the noisier, slower, less manoeuvrable sub (a Delta SSBN) and I ran an experiment where I had to transit through an area where a stronger sub (in this case, a Sturgeon) was lurking... I was deep, at 3kts, but eventually, there's going to be a TIW, out of the blue...(it turned out I was thumped by the Sturgeon...) If you're in the weaker boat, do you have 'snapshots' pre-prepared when you're patrolling? What's the best range/time to enable them? Do you let loose ASW missiles, or just let torpedoes go in a spread? Curious to hear your thoughts! Stew

05-11-19, 04:15 AM	#2
p7p8 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 742 Downloads: 136 Uploads: 6	Sturgeon is much older submarine than Delta IV Speed difference is only 1 kts Turn radius 500 for both submarines. noise lavels at 0, 5, 10, 15 kts Sturg 63 72 76 78 Delta 64 71 74 75 (noise levels from old data) Weapon: Sturg Mark 48 mod 1 - range 14/21 nmi Delta IV UGST - range 16/21.5 nmi SS-N-27 ASW (SUBROC) - range 27 nmi It means you compares very similar submarines (in case of duel) So where is your problem? __________________ Last edited by p7p8; 05-11-19 at 04:28 AM.

05-11-19, 05:18 AM	#4
p7p8 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 742 Downloads: 136 Uploads: 6	It's not easy to answer. You should always use your sub advantages over enemy sub disadvantages Playing againstAI is also completly different than vs human. AI is like not very smart cheater For example: Tracking AI sub is usually very easy but tracking player sub is not. For me comparisoning noise levels is common mistake. It doesn't really matter because as you wrote in first post, you knew somewhere was Sturgeon - so you decreased speed to 3 kts. What was Sturgeon speed? 10 kts? I mean: if someone make ambush for transiting sub, almost always can be very quiet. Problem is when you have to run fast (you are part of screen of convoy moving 15 kts) and on your route are submarines at very low speed - almost undetectable. So, your noise level is not crucial, but yout maximum tactical speed and firepower (good torpedoes or wide weapon variety) When you launch torpedoes on enemy direction he have to evade and he cannot track you like before. So it's good idea. After this you should increase speed (enemy probably is deaf at this moment) and change course: move away from enemy torpedoes "interception point" high tactical speed allows to run away while tracking enemy Check UNSI REFERENCE in game - there are informations about sensors __________________

05-11-19, 04:29 AM	#3
Stewy1 Girt by Sea Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Red Route 1 Posts: 363 Downloads: 131 Uploads: 34	Looks like I've got more training to do then! Thanks P7 for your answer. What about the sensor difference between the two boats? I'll rephrase the question - what do you do when you get a TIW, out of the blue and it's a complete surprise? Shoot a spread? When should you enable them? Shoot ASW missiles? or just focus on evading? Cheers for your help, Stew

05-11-19, 05:48 AM	#5
Stewy1 Girt by Sea Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Red Route 1 Posts: 363 Downloads: 131 Uploads: 34	Thanks P7 - I appreciate your answers a lot. Looks like I need to practise a little more! I think also going active (when there's a TIW) would 'level' the playing field when dealing with an ambushing sub - I need to practise with that scenario too. Cheers for your help P7, Stew

05-11-19, 11:28 AM	#6
ET2SN ET2/SS Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 2,505 Downloads: 58 Uploads: 0	OK, I get what you're asking but you need to understand the difference between attack subs and boomers. Boomers hide. It was what they were designed to do. Find a large chunk of ocean with nothing in it and stay there. If something else shows up, leave as soon as its practical. If you need to transit an area where you could be detected, get some escorts to help you out or wait until the bad guys get fed up and leave. You're too big to dog fight anything. The same idea applies to the USS Jimmy Carter. It was never designed to fight a battle. That isn't its mission. So, what about a Kilo vs an attack boat? Use what you've got. You don't need as much draft, for starters. The Kilo was designed mostly for littoral waters. Find an island or some shore line and let that shallow draft work for you. Think about what the other guy has to deal with to get a shot at you. Unless he wants to torpedo a sand bar or a muddy bottom, he'll have to go to (basically) PD to launch a fish. That's the whole trick, force the other guy to throw away his advantages. If you force him to go shallow, he winds up in tougher conditions and his speed gets limited due to the depth.

05-12-19, 04:36 AM	#7
Stewy1 Girt by Sea Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Red Route 1 Posts: 363 Downloads: 131 Uploads: 34	Thanks for the helpful answer, ET, I appreciate it. I'll keep training! Stew