Convoys seem to be magically detecting my launches...

[Capt Jack Harkness]

Lately when I've intercepted convoys in '84 I've noticed that the convoy starts to run as soon as I launch a Mk 48, even if I'm below 0 dB on all contacts. The files show 5 dB for launch transients so if I'm at 0 that puts the transient at +5 dB, well below the 10 dB detection threshold. Or are transients detected at any positive level?

[XenonSurf]

Except for swim-out torpedos, tracients or missile launches are very noisy for a short time, more than active pings. The 10 threshold is for active/passive/Towed array detection only, not for tracients I think. Launch below a strong layer to avoid detection, you can still program torpedos to run shallow once activated.

[GoldenRivet]

I'll top that.

silent running

1600 feet deep

2 knots creep ahead

helicopter drops a torpedo right down the hatch.

once that deed is done i have a dozen torpedoes and depth charges i have to outgun

SHIII with GWX in 1944 wasnt as hard as Cold Waters can sometimes be

i dont get the AI in this game for a minute

[Delfi]

Those helos do have MAD sensors and sonobuoys. Even at 2 knots you aren't going to be completely silent. If you really want them to throw torpedoes at you, try launching missiles then run like hell.

[GoldenRivet]

do we have any hard data on the efficiency of a MAD when it comes to detecting a submerged submarine? i doubt its 100%

by COLD WATERS' logic, all we have to do is fly around with MAD probes and presto... we have the location of every submerged submarine within 10 miles of the sensor

EDIT:

my understanding is that mad is only effective to about 1500 feet in any direction based on what i have read. additionally, to make best use of the MAD, the aircraft has to already have a reasonable guess as to the wherabouts of the submarine. ie... we know it is in this 5 sq miles, so we will use MAD to narrow that down.

perhaps this helo got lucky and just did a random dip in the water right on top of me... but i dismiss this theory due to the annoyingly high number of times this happens to me in game. Im Deep, im quiet, im undetected by other resources on the map, nobody is responding to me, then boom "torpedo in the water!" and a quick look around and the helo is directly, and i do mean directly above me.

i wish i understood more the mechanics of how this game determines whether or not you are detected, because the aircraft find me in DEEEEEEP water, with accuracy to the extend that i may as well have been surfaced, often times in the first few minutes of the engagement.

i have taken the sturgeon to 1800 feet before, with no hope of escaping MAD... its as if MAD, in cold waters, renders the submarine obsolete as an offensive weapon. i somehow dont think that is accurate. i mean, MAD equipped aircraft have been surveying the waters off the coast of argentina every bit that deep for three weeks looking for the san juan and havnt even found fish, let alone a disturbance in the water

[Julhelm]

More than likely you are getting pinged by active sonoboys or active dippers.

[XenonSurf]

The MAD has a very short detection range, and it DOESN'T matter how quiet you are, which is realistic because it works with detection of magnetical changes pointing to an underwater object.

Instead, sonobuoys dropped from helos or dipping devices have a range of about 4-5 kyds, they work on sonar-basis, get out of this range by moving quietly, pointing your sub away from it, and you are safe.

In the first CW releases the MAD range was 1000 yds (1 kyd), it has been reduced to 500 , and reduced to 400 in current mods. If a TU-142 plane overflies you directly, then assume you are detected and it will make other passes launching depth charges or torpedos shortly after...

Also there is the rule: detected by one means detected by ALL enemies (communication between surface units; subs should be excepted).

[FPSchazly]

If a sub is right above you with a dipping sonar, it's pretty reasonable to expect that it will hear you even at 2 knots or something. Even at 1200 ft depth, you're talking about just a quarter mile between the source and the sensor. How the helo got there is another question.

Depth alone does not mean anything in terms of counter-detection unless (1) there is a layer and (2) assuming you have a layer between you and the detecting platform, you are far enough away to be in the shadow zone. Remember that for all intents and purposes, the layer does not exist if you are not sufficiently far away from the detecting platform.

[Julhelm]

The layer also stops being effective at steep angles. It is only at relatively shallow angles that it deflects sound, and as such an enemy at very close range can suddenly pick you up quite clearly.

[GoldenRivet]

Yes, MAD has nothing necessarily to do with noise, but the accuracy of MAD has been hotly debated IRL and for games alike.

i have heard one source say that use of MAD has fallen out of favor since the mid 80's due to the degauzing of subs having such an affect on MAD ability to detect them when deep, and that sonar buoys are the go to item

I have also heard that MAD is ineffective in...

1. deep water even when you are buzzing the surface because it often cannot detect deeper than 900-1500 feet depending on conditions sometimes shallower

2. coastal waters because of the erroneous signals received from the sea bed, wrecks, etc

3. extreme latitudes because of the need to align the aircraft as perfectly as possible with the mag field of the earth to get it to work right and if you deviate from this, you can sometimes even detect your own aircraft.

i have also read, from a former P-8 pilot, that finding a submarine with MAD is a lot trickier and time consuming than one might think. and that in deep water, even if you narrowed down the submarines location to a 30 mile by 30 mile area, it would take you 2 or 3 hours to run a ladder pattern, and at an altitude of 200 feet you are burning through fuel very quickly in a turbine engine and would likely have to leave the area if you didnt find anything on your first sweep. if the water is very deep you would have to be lucky enough to fly right over the sub's hatch to get a reliable reading.

it was also pointed out, that if a P-8 had a good idea of the location sub to begin with, they could detect them using MAD with near 100% accuracy, every time.

so i imagine MAD is a difficult thing for the devs to simulate accurately.

but it is frustrating that there you are, lurking along for 45 minutes, everything is setting up just right for you to destroy this convoy and all the sudden you have a torpedo zooming straight down at you. (followed shortly thereafter by a dozen more lol)

[CINCPAC]

Originally Posted by Capt Jack Harkness

Lately when I've intercepted convoys in '84 I've noticed that the convoy starts to run as soon as I launch a Mk 48, even if I'm below 0 dB on all contacts. The files show 5 dB for launch transients so if I'm at 0 that puts the transient at +5 dB, well below the 10 dB detection threshold. Or are transients detected at any positive level?

There are some convoys that adhere to weaving. I've found launching 4 torpedo's with 1 leading then one on and two spaced short can get results if the **** doesn't go off the bearing too much.

[GoldenRivet]

I always pack on the TSAMs when intercepting convoys whenever i have the opportunity to select the loadout.

my strategy is to close the distance, and then use torpedoes to take out the escorts one at a time.

of course the merchants will turn tail and run for their lives in the opposite direction, but this doesn't matter.

once the escorts are dealt with, i load up the TSAMs and fire one at a time until each merchant has been destroyed.

i have found this to be the easiest approach when compared to trying to sneak up and take everyone out with torpedoes, because the minute you launch the first one, the merchants run for it, and very frequently they get out of range while you are slugging it out with the escorts and you will have to spend a lot of time running them down to get back into torpedo range.

using the TSAMs allows you to take them out on their retreat, and the only threat you have to face is the helicopter(s) escorting the group. if you can stay on top of evading the chopper, you can take the merchants out one at a time like a sniper

I tend to avoid use of Harpoons is because it generally takes two harpoons to take out all but the smallest ships. where one TSAM will take out most anything afloat.

[Capt Jack Harkness]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

I always pack on the TSAMs when intercepting convoys whenever i have the opportunity to select the loadout.

my strategy is to close the distance, and then use torpedoes to take out the escorts one at a time.

of course the merchants will turn tail and run for their lives in the opposite direction, but this doesn't matter.

once the escorts are dealt with, i load up the TSAMs and fire one at a time until each merchant has been destroyed.

i have found this to be the easiest approach when compared to trying to sneak up and take everyone out with torpedoes, because the minute you launch the first one, the merchants run for it, and very frequently they get out of range while you are slugging it out with the escorts and you will have to spend a lot of time running them down to get back into torpedo range.

using the TSAMs allows you to take them out on their retreat, and the only threat you have to face is the helicopter(s) escorting the group. if you can stay on top of evading the chopper, you can take the merchants out one at a time like a sniper

I tend to avoid use of Harpoons is because it generally takes two harpoons to take out all but the smallest ships. where one TSAM will take out most anything afloat.

Yeah, that's my tactic, too, but as soon as I launch my first torpedo the whole convoy turns away and starts running for their lives. I think the last time it happened I was at -8 dB on the escort with the best ears. I don't remember this happening in earlier builds. Haven't got a convoy in 1.09 yet to check if it's still there.

[XenonSurf]

For torpedo transients, my safety rules are simple:
I assume the enemy will get my bearing for 2 seconds, except if I am on the other side of a strong layer, and that's where I will fire to try keeping the transient unnoticed.
Having your bearing doesn't mean they have your exact position, but you are uncomfortable because now enemy knows where to look for you...And don't forget: if only 1 knows where you are, then ALL know where you are (those on the surface).

Is it a success launching on the other side of the layer? Against surface vessels yes, against subs I would say no.
Even torpedos running deep until very close to a surface target will at some distance get detected, I see no big difference from making them run shallow in the first place. Thing is: most surface vessels don't have the speed to make long evasions, so it doesn't matter much.
And for subs: they may react too late to your torpedos is the case of a baffle-firing - and keep them on wire as late as possible and on the other side of the layer. You can then go up to the seeker aquiring distance to be detected, but it's rare on 'realistic', which is to say that sonarmen do their job right.