Manchester Arena 'explosion'

[Catfish]

^ huh what has this to do with the UK and US manipulating governments in the middle east for oil in the 20ieth century, or with the drone war?

[Skybird]

What people like you simply do not want to see, Catfish, is that Islam is an ideology of a certain content that is like this, and not like that, and it is like this even without the West doing the one thing or the other thing: the modern West plays no role regarding what the content of the Quran is. Muhammad was what today would be called a warlord, plain and simple. Attatürk called him a murderous desert bandit, and not more. He attacked. He blackmailed. He started raids. He started wars. He bribed. He intimidated. He murdered. He called for racist discrimination. He mocked his followers when they expressed doubts about that it is right to now kill infidels. What message do you expect from such a person? The Oriental version of the sermon on the mount...?

[Von Due]

We can always start back in the 20th century with Britain and the Soviet Union co-invading Iran over oil, forcefully replacing the Shah with a puppet Shah. We can start with the despot Shah, the despot Saudi family and the inevitable reactions to those, leaving the Iranians as well as the Saudis squashed between an oppressive king and oppressive priests and religious nutters. The Shah and the Saudi kings must have studied King Leopold well. We can start with the nationalism that swept across Asia and Africa when the colonial times ended for pretty much all except France who till this day is heavily involved in several African countries with military precence as well as political pressure to secure resources like uranium. Or we can start with the nationalists and communists clashing in the 60's in Afghanistan and Pakistan and how the west and the USSR supported left and right as they pleased at any given moment. That's the 1960's not 60 AD. We can start with Israel and 1948, the birth of Pakistan out of India, Bangladesh too. The mess in the middle east the last decades. This is modern history. No need to look back at the Crusades to find enough reasons for extremism to get to terrorism. There are still old people alive today in Afghanistan who remember peace when men and women studied and worked side by side. There are now 2-3 generations who have seen nothing but continuous war, both civil war and invasions. To expect they will behave as if they had never seen war is lunacy.

EDIT Perhaps MI5 can get through where I fail:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/...ity.terrorism1

[ValoWay]

Poverty, unemployment, especially youth unemployment in countries which keep producing new blood for terror organisations are a big issue..

Those people have no perspective in life.. I theorize that radical beliefs are often the only way out of it, pretty much like drug abuse in the western world.. Poor people in the west tend to become obese and watch TV all day, do drugs while in the middle east people join terrorists in order to find meaning in life.. Failed drone strikes et cetera certainly aren't helping with that tendency..

Life sucks for those (often young) people and false prophets cleverly use religion to steer their anger against the west while the rich keep getting richer on both sides.. Hitler in the 1930s and the great depression comes to mind here..

[mapuc]

One word

Sweden

Sweden is, what I know of, the most political correct country and have, what I know of, not being sending drones or trying to manipulate government i Middle east or North Africa

And still 5 innocent in Stockholm had to pay with their life due to some sick Islamic fanatic

When will people understand that these Islamist hate us. Hate our way of living and so on.

Markus

[Von Due]

Originally Posted by mapuc

One word

Sweden

From the article I linked, on the MI5 report on violent extremism in the UK:

• Those involved in British terrorism are not unintelligent or gullible, and nor are they more likely to be well-educated; their educational achievement ranges from total lack of qualifications to degree-level education. However, they are almost all employed in low-grade jobs.

• Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.

Any reason why Sweden would be any different?

Pointing at drones from the USA and thereby excusing the terror attacks in the name of Islam that happen daily, world wide, is nothing but short-sighted. Islam terrorizes everyone, everywhere. I doubt that Boko Haram, for example, does what it does because the Americans conduct drone strikes against women and children in Pakistan.

Drones sure are an issue, yes. There are two sides to them.
They are, on one side, taking out important figures, while on the other side they are used so recklessly, that they become a tool of propaganda, for Islam to recruit more murderers.
However, I'd like to see numbers that support the claim that these drones seriously play a noteworthy role in that.
I am sure they do not - and I totally do not condone the use of them, I criticized them here before, heavily.

Islam is Islam.
I wish people that blindly defend it, or the people that are "mislead" by it, would invest the time and energy into reading a few passages in it, instead of indirectly defending something they do not know yet. The topic is quite clear. The Quran is not as difficult as Muslims claim, which leads to a huge problem: You cannot trust any Muslim. Why? Because Muslims are allowed to lie to any non-Muslims if it helps their ideology to advance.

That is why you hear, over and over, how Islam is the religion of peace, while in the background you can hear explosions echo through Europe.
How does that add up? Oh right: Poor hijacked religion.
The "hijacked religion" nonsense can be swept away after reading it briefly.
Those who shed blood in the name of Allah, only do what their holy book tells them to do. Simple as that.

Want to know about Islam?
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

[Von Due]

If I want to know about Islam, I would perhaps have more than that particular source but I do re-read in that link the arguements certain people here have posted as their only arguements. A religion of peace? Nope, not any more than any other religion which means, it is as peaceful or warmongering as people want it to be, precicely like other religions.

Here's a tip: Read up on the tribal pre-Islamic Arab world, the world Mohammed grew up in, the world that most certainly shaped him. It was not a nice place at all for women, them having absolutely zero rights, or they had the same amount of rights as the men's sandals or toothpicks. Waging war like the best of them too, marrying kids, and if you belonged to the wrong clan, then your life was not worth much. It's on that background you can begin to look into Islam and see that Islam did not introduce these ideas. Does Islam promote it? Ask those who agree and the answer is yes. Ask those who disagree and they''ll say no. To claim there exists some sort of pan-Islamic agreement is ignorant. Look at the tribal Arab world and see if you can spot the hotspots in Saudi Arabia for instance. It is no coincidence that the leader of ISIS, the Taliban in Afghanistan, Al Quaeda and others have their roots in Saudi Arabia and not say, Quatar or Bahrain. Iran is the oddball as they are not Arabs but their own religion and culture was pushed aside by invading Arabs.

As for "excuse", certainly not. There are no excuses for murder. None. I don't care if it's by religious fanatics, pseudo religious dropouts or Governments.

This idea, that terrorism is an intrincic part of Islam itself utterly fails to explain the periods in history when there were no terrorist attacks from Islamists. That is my main beef with that idea. Another thing that has been present each and every time there has been an attack, be it from Islamists, Zionist terror organizations or Buddhists is a social and political environment of oppression and or violence. The political factor has been there every single time things went to hell, these religions have all seen long periods of peace.

EDIT
http://visionofhumanity.org/app/uplo...Index-2016.pdf
page 5 section 5

Originally Posted by Von Due

This idea, that terrorism is an intrincic part of Islam itself utterly fails to explain the periods in history when there were no terrorist attacks from Islamists.

I didn't say it is, did anyone else here?
Terror attacks are a modern tool of warfare to bring this ideology further.
It wasn't needed in the past.

I don't really care why Islam is what it is, what lead to it, or what these freaks think justifies what they do. I don't care. It's not the issue.
The issue is Manchester, Berlin, Nizza, London, Madrid, ... this list is a long one as you know.

I want it to end, instead of becoming worse.
And I see that all these attacks are committed in the name of the same ideology. It's never the Buddhists, the Christians, the Sikh, ...
Instead of finally addressing the core of the problem, the ideology that openly preaches to destroy the west/conquer it etc., we are more afraid of being not politically correct.
What to do? Not sure. We can hardly "ban" Islam, and it would also just lead to the vast majority of Muslims finally showing their real face. I am sure instant civil war would break out all over Europe.
But we can also not continue to act as if "Islam is not the problem!"
True, it isn't - just everything else is.
What can we do, do you have an idea?
Do you think there needs something to be done at all?

All the terror aside, the ideology is garbage from A to Z anyways, and it is beyond me that we are able to realize that banning Nazism is a good idea, yet we let other ideologies that aren't any better bloom all over Europe and excuse it with "freedom of religion".
This is ridiculous and will lead to the islamization of Europe, even though leftists love to ridicule this term, despite the demographic facts that strongly support it.
In a few decades, Europe will have changed drastically.
But hey, let's rather worry about being PC and convince us that 'diversity' is for some reason the way to go.
If I want to meet other cultures, I go visit their countries.

[ikalugin]

It was not a nice place at all for women, them having absolutely zero rights

Didn't he marry a rich and active widow?

[Von Due]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Didn't he marry a rich and active widow?

True. Upper class women had more rights than lower class women. Rights would also be a matter of the local society. Hamurabi's Laws do mention that women under certain circumstances were allowed to divorce. Out of Hammurabi's reach, things were different and up to local traditions.

[Von Due]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

I didn't say it is, did anyone else here?
Terror attacks are a modern tool of warfare to bring this ideology further.
It wasn't needed in the past.

The Sicarii operated in ancient times and were by all standards a terrorist organization. Terror has a long history. India saw it, Palestine/Israel saw it.

I don't really care why Islam is what it is, what lead to it, or what these freaks think justifies what they do. I don't care. It's not the issue.
The issue is Manchester, Berlin, Nizza, London, Madrid, ... this list is a long one as you know.

It becomes an issue when you want to see it end.

I want it to end, instead of becoming worse.

I'm with you here.

And I see that all these attacks are committed in the name of the same ideology. It's never the Buddhists, the Christians, the Sikh, ...

Oh that is not correct. Buddhist terror has happened in this decade. Christian terror: The Italian mafia's killings of judges, policemen, priests and others, the Mexican drug cartels' grip on the entire Mexican society where femicide now is running rampant, it's terror by definition. For political gains, for power.

Instead of finally addressing the core of the problem, the ideology that openly preaches to destroy the west/conquer it etc., we are more afraid of being not politically correct.

No different from the proposals of literally dropping nukes on the entire Middle East.

What to do? Not sure.

Again I agree. I don't know either. There are points one have to look at though. Western/Russian involvement in these areas, French colonialism today, our domestically tendency of not hiring anyone with "weird" names for jobs other than kebab chefs, acknowledge that resources belonging to another state is not for anyone with a bigger gun to grab, stopping support of oppressive regimes no matter how sweet deals they offer, stopping the divide and conquer mentality found in our own business world, having our politicians and lawmakers acknowledging that human rights are not for a select few, a complete rework on how we "distribute" resources, wealth, medicines, rights... even if we have to pay through our noses financially.

We also are in need of an effective intelligence capable of doing their job. We are our own protection's worst nightmare the way we throw every monkey wrench in their gears in the name of some ideal freedom that doesn't exist in the first place. The agencies on the other hand need to work on their image. Too much funny business have eaten away the public's trust in them.

We also need laws to deal with the shadow figures behind the extremism. I don't cry if a hate preacher gets life in jail with monitored visits. Law enforcement needs the ability to work clandestine to find these figures and that is a problem (see trust issue).

We can hardly "ban" Islam, and it would also just lead to the vast majority of Muslims finally showing their real face. I am sure instant civil war would break out all over Europe.

No civil war but why ban it? For all I care all religion could be banned as a favour to all of us but nah.

Do you think there needs something to be done at all?

Absolutely. See above.

All the terror aside, the ideology is garbage from A to Z anyways, and it is beyond me that we are able to realize that banning Nazism is a good idea, yet we let other ideologies that aren't any better bloom all over Europe and excuse it with "freedom of religion".

The opposite of, or alternative to, freedom of religion is called what? Beside, which religion, if only one, should win? My religion? I have no religion. Your? The Catholics'? Protestants? Or the old religion before it was destroyed by an intruding religion? Which religion, or no religion at all?

This is ridiculous and will lead to the islamization of Europe, even though leftists love to ridicule this term, despite the demographic facts that strongly support it.

Where do you get your facts from?

In a few decades, Europe will have changed drastically.

I'll take that as a prediction. Not a stating of facts as neither you nor I have a working crystal ball. I am not that worried...

But hey, let's rather worry about being PC and convince us that 'diversity' is for some reason the way to go.
If I want to meet other cultures, I go visit their countries.

It's not about being PC. It's about avoiding attrocities that can be avoided if we deal with the real, underlying problems which also include getting those who work in the shadows who are well protected behind laws and apathy.

As for different cultures and all that: Business and politics see it differently and so do consumers when it comes to jobs, money and prices. Then it's ok to go to other countries, not to visit but to demand. This is where finding a solution starts.

Last: How many Islamist attacks from the 4 million muslims in South America? What is South America's involvement in the Middle East? Any correlation?

[ValoWay]

So are people here really believing that Islam as a whole, the entire religion is evil? That honestly sounds extremely narrow-minded to me.. but then again we also allow malicious bollocks like scientology so who really knows what the people in charge in the west were $$$thinking$$$.. I always thought the people who are shaping 'islam' as a tool for terror are to blame? When german soldiers were slaughtering jews in the believe that it was their duty in the name of the 'Vaterland', cause himmler, hitler and the rest of the gang said so (aka Nazism), why's that any different to terrorists which blow themselves up in the name of allah, cause some guy with a long beard kept shouting it for hours on end? We also don't call the german people evil, because of the nazis..

When we believe that the entire religion is evil from the ground up we also have to ask ourselves why our leaders never had any issues allowing them to live with us or to make deals with them.. According to this logic we must have always known that islam was evil, cause their book was always as publicly available to us just as the bible.. Otherwise, they used magic tricks..

[Von Due]

[cont]

Local issues must be solved as well. Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Yemen, Israel/Palestine, the apathy of the Sauds towards religious leaders who are both supporters of the king as well as supporters of terror putting the king in a jam, several African countries torn apart for half a century by civil wars and coups, former Soviet republics and Russian influence there, Chinese domestic policies towards their own, these are way heavier problems than I can even suggest a solution for.

Originally Posted by Von Due

The Assassins operated in ancient times and were by all standards a terrorist organization. Terror has a long history. India saw it, Palestine/Israel saw it.

Assassins kill selected targets, they do not commit mass-slaughtering of women and children. Or did they?
Whatever may be the case, I rather look at what happens now.
And now, Europe is in peril, with a rather bad prognosis.

Originally Posted by Von Due

It becomes an issue when you want to see it end.

I disagree. I see what you're getting it though.

Originally Posted by Von Due

Oh that is not correct. Buddhist terror has happened in this decade. Christian terror: The Italian mafia's killings of judges, policemen, priests and others, the Mexican drug cartels' grip on the entire Mexican society where femicide now is running rampant, it's terror by definition. For political gains, for power.

Yes, the infamous Buddhist terror attacks, don't we all remember the countless attacks, globally, with thousands of victims, over decades.
And the Italian Mafia? Drug Cartels?
These are completely different issues, with incomparable dimensions.

Originally Posted by Von Due

No different from the proposals of literally dropping nukes on the entire Middle East.

Yes. Right. Demanding that European politicians start to talk openly about Islam instead of repeating the same PC-nonsense of freedom, diversity and being so strong together - while bombs go off left and right - is the same as to ask for dropping nukes on the middle east...
It's basically synonymous, right?

Originally Posted by Von Due

Again I agree. I don't know either. There are points one have to look at though. Western/Russian involvement in these areas, French colonialism today, our domestically tendency [...]

Nothing of that influenced the content of the Quran. Nothing.

Originally Posted by Von Due

No civil war but why ban it? For all I care all religion could be banned as a favour to all of us but nah.

No civil war?
Considering the amount of Muslims in Europe, a ban of what is most important to them would most likely lead to a civil war. Protests would get insanely violent, because too many Muslims cannot control themselves when it is about their ideology. I experienced this multiple times, in person. As soon as you criticize (and I mean criticize, not insult or slander!) their beliefs, they completely lose it. God help you if you're alone with them if it happens, or worse: If they are in a group, while you're not.
I've been in these situations, and I learned my lesson: Islam means peace.

For all I care, yes, all religion could just disappear. In my opinion mankind should be advanced enough by now to understand how silly it is to believe in fantasy stories that are thousands of years old and unproven, even having these fantasy stories control their lives.
It is beyond stupid in my opinion - but as long as the Religion in question does not cause too many problems, let alone affect me directly, I don't care - to each his own!
If people following this ideology start to commit murder, and I see that ideology spread where I was born and raised up, in peace, I do start to worry.

Originally Posted by Von Due

The opposite of, or alternative to, freedom of religion is called what? Beside, which religion, if only one, should win? My religion? I have no religion. Your? The Catholics'? Protestants? Or the old religion before it was destroyed by an intruding religion? Which religion, or no religion at all?

No religion at all.
However, I am not saying "ban religion", it simply isn't possible, as I stated earlier. It is too inter-woven with our cultures and societies, of course.
And in the end I wouldn't care as long as no one suffers from it.
As I said: We cannot ban it. I made no statement if we should, or not, either.

Originally Posted by Von Due

Where do you get your facts from?

Various sources over the last ten years.
If you google for demographic studies and observations regarding Islam in Europe, you will sure find a lot on it.

Originally Posted by Von Due

I'll take that as a prediction. Not a stating of facts as neither you nor I have a working crystal ball. I am not that worried...

Did I say it is a fact?
It is the future, so yes, it is a prediction - what else?
But these predictions rely on demographics, history and other data.

Also: Not that worried?

Originally Posted by Von Due

It's not about being PC. It's about avoiding attrocities that can be avoided if we deal with the real, underlying problems which also include getting those who work in the shadows who are well protected behind laws and apathy.

What are the real problems?
Again, what from today, has influenced the content of the Quran and Sharia? Nothing.
It is what it is. PC people just try to find some magic reasons to shift the blame - for whatever reason.
Why is it not OK to come to the conclusion that the ideology of Islam is dangerous?

Originally Posted by Von Due

Last: How many Islamist attacks from the 4 million muslims in South America? What is South America's involvement in the Middle East? Any correlation?

Well, 4 million Muslims all over South America?
No wonder there is not much going on in that regard.
Give it time... let them spread a bit more, you'll see.

Let's look at it globally:




So let's assume these numbers are way off, even by, let's say, crazy 50%.
Wouldn't that still be enough to finally realize something's a tiddy tad wrong with that ideology, and why having Europe - or whatever place - flooded with it, is a terrible, terrible idea?

If you really think none of this is a problem, or even not true, so be it. I'm not here to convince you. I don't care, and said about Islam what I can say at this point.