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Old 04-17-2019, 07:16 AM   #1
Skybird
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Default New studiy shows CO2 bilance of e-cars is worse than that of Diesel cars

... when you correctly add the costs for producing the batteries and the e-power as well. Usually, these get ignored, which of course is not serious.

English:

http://www.cesifo-group.de/ifoHome/p...ktroautos.html

Full study text in German here:
http://www.cesifo-group.de/DocDL/sd-...2019-04-25.pdf


---

As I always said: dont buy an electric bicycle to save the climate. Buy it because it is fun! The e-mobility madness I never really bought into, its a surrogate religion and a cult aiming at providng its foloowers with a clean consceince to secure a seat in ecologic heaven. And I think there are better alternatives than e-mobility that avoid the nightmarish infrastructure problem e-mobility comes with. I love my ebike and the open range it unlockm s for me. But never did I believe I did something good for the planet.

And I change the chain at least every 1200-1500 km, the wear and tear if using a middle-engine linked to the pedals, is immense...
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Old 04-17-2019, 07:51 AM   #2
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I'm not so sre all those people who buy electric cars (for example) are thinking of the planet but more precisely on saving on the ever increasing fuel costs.

I also think the purchase price of these cars being so much higher factors in the fuel savings.
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:02 AM   #3
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I agree that overall the environmental benefit of e-cars is overstated and always has been, although if the power industry can get greener (even just switching to natural gas is a huge improvement) it helps out a lot.

One other benefit for e-cars in urban environments is that the reduction in emissions does help with localized air quality (a little).
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:08 AM   #4
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In media and in the public, the public opinion forming, e-mobility gets sold as an ecology-saver, no doubt on that, Jim. On the fincial costs for buying such cars, and the enonmrous vlaue loss they go throzugh in short time due to the degrading and technically outdating b attery, I do not even talk - that is an added negativ ebonus.


And then there is the enormous costs for building an infrastrructure for supployng hcraging options. An infrastruxcture that costs money, and that in the end coist the tax payer - true if you just count taxes directly, true if indirectly calculating the growing debts of the state providing it and thus later devaluing money and so again plundering the people.



And the ecologic costs go far beyond this financial aspect. While lithium ion batteries alreeady are a dated technology, they still are the workhorse of batter economy. Cobalt. Lithium - winning these are dirty businesses, and inhumane works in many cases, a raping of th enevironment. The availability is limited , and once the demand becomes bigger than the supply, the prices for batteries will skyrocket into the air. So the spread between porice for new batteries and selling old, used batteries/cars, becomes even bigger - at cost of the customers.



It all makes so very much less sense than the general public discussioin usually reflects.



Then there is the question where power is coming from. The Ger,man "Energiewende" has massively destabilised supply securit yin not just Germany, but hrpoughout the whole Eurppean powergrid. On many days Germany mjst buy "dirty2 power from other coutnries, becasue if the weather does not play ball, Germany is no longer capabvle to meet its elelctric deamnd all by itself -a dn this with still some nu,mcear plants and coal block online, which in case of the first will eb switche doff, and in case of the altter by will of the left-green retards should be switched off better yesterday than today, NO MATTER WHAT.



Having talked with my parents and my childhood days that I do not remember, electricty supply stability has never been so bad in my life than it is now, a clear, massive detoriation over the past ten years. Since a frew years I witness something that is totally new to me: micro blackouts, and instabilities in the power grid. In all our street. At the same time the pice and market mechansims that suually reuglate the market, has been toppled and turned top down. We have the highest energy prices in the Western world already here in Germany, and it is set to become worse.



Deindustrialization. While the planetary population level is still pushed upwards. Oh my. But I stra yoff, sorry. Its all just so hilarious.
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:18 AM   #5
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Electrical infrastructure is indeed failing more often now, thanks to privatisation, when companies try to generate more income by neglecting maintenance.
Using electrical propulsion at the time being can only be of local advantage, the energy has to be produced somewhere. And while it might help to take the load of pollution and noise from certain 'hot spots', it just puts the problems out of sight.

Next, the millions of tons of copper needed to build the infrastructure with enough charging stations, because you need one for every second car at least, it is not like with gas stations unless you exchange a rechargeable battery completely everytime. Or maybe the charge cyclus can be sped up, but then you need even more energy.
Then you have energy current loss in the power supply lines, over the miles from the powerhouse to the charging stations, then the charging itself has a lot of loss, energy-wise.

So why not use hydrogen via tanks or fuel cells? We could even keep the engines we have now, with minor modifications, while there is just water vapour leaving the exhaust. Generating hydrogen can be another problem i know..
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:30 AM   #6
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^My guess. And the copper argument I have had not even on radar so far. I have red however already years ago that it was in short supply already back then.

The electric power demand is climbing globally. And green fantasists want to reduce availability instead, and destabilise supply, arguing that this would force people to consume less. Ha! The edcuational value of misery and lack!

We are too many. And thus we need to much. Sustainability and ecological zero-balance cannot be had with 8+ billion. Its too many. Food production. Goods and items production. Energy. Health providing. Fighting corruption. Environment pollution. Species extinction. Desertification. Waste disposal. Traffic. Farming and planting. - We are too many.
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:32 AM   #7
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The cleaner energy production becomes, the cleaner e-cars become.
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Old 04-17-2019, 10:08 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dowly View Post
The cleaner energy production becomes, the cleaner e-cars become.
Except the fact that they run on huge batteries that'll become waste when their lifespan is done for. A forseeable problem for the enviroment since we probably dump it on some forsaken third world's country junkyard out of sight, out of mind.

Also the resources to build batteries are limited like fossil fuels so there's that problem.

I don't believe that Battery powered transportation is the future, I think it's just shifting the problem rather then solving it.
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Old 04-17-2019, 10:13 AM   #9
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Someone say copper? Rio Tinto (RIO) and Turquoise Hill Resource (TRQ) are busy gearing up to start meeting world copper demands at the Oyu Tolgoi copper mine in Mongolia. Sooner they start diggn' the sooner I start making mo'money.
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:27 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dowly View Post
The cleaner energy production becomes, the cleaner e-cars become.
Logically yes. However, besides the CO2 byproduct of manufacturing batteries, etc the increase of EV requiring charging also increases additional CO2 from the electrical stations providing the energy for said charging. Here in the US many cites still use coal to generate electricity. Maryland uses coal for the city of Baltimore and surrounding counties. Contributing are dams that generate electricity. There is also a nuclear plant. EV is certainly is not the answer all but is a part of an overall scheme of reducing pollution. I say this because eventually the engineers will solve a great many problems generated by fossil fuels. For decades the internal combustion engine has gone from a cloud of unburnt black smoke and oil mixture from the tailpipe to basically making water at the tailpipe.
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:32 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dowly View Post
The cleaner energy production becomes, the cleaner e-cars become.
Not their production, not with currently available batteries.



However, the outlook in battery research is two split. Every couple of months a new breakthorugh gets claimed, swinc eyears, and then doe snot mae´terialise, often for even frauduklent background reasons. In this light it has to be taken with care that sdeverla new battery technologies are hinted at that should allow mucz greater storage and faster charging, while not using Lithium, but silicium, and other quite ordinary materials.


The high energy demand for producing the cars, and namely aluminium and steel, will remain. And that use of small quanities of toxic, critical ingredient sprobbaly will stay as well. These will be needed to learn recycling them better.


Which makes thes ecars even more expensive to buy in the next future, I predict. All that research has to be paid for. Too push premature mass production of an out´dated tehcnology of highly quesiutonable perspective today, imo is irresponsible, and a waste of money.



The instability of the powergrid is not due to privatiozation, but due to insufficient base supply levels by prducers of renewables. Wind and sun in German are mutually exclusive for the most: the mroe sun you have over the day, less wind, and vice versa. The socalled "Netzauslastungsreserve" moe and more often had to be called up and could not compensate for the3 deficitary energy production in Germany, so additional power contigents had to be bought from neighbouring nations. This is necessary becasue there could be seriosu damages to the gridworek infrastructre if certain min imum power levels due to lacking supply or too high demand do not get met. n this case powerplants able to be switched on and off fast without needing days opr weeks to prepare them, are needed. And even these the Greens and the climate activists want to get rid off. Germany is wanting to deindustrialise itself. We shall be a happy green place of hobbits. And please, no dragons for pets.



There is some website in German that lists day by day the exact numbers on how and how much power gets produced, day by day, and descrbing the weather. When I first found it, it was quite revealing. Collapse with pre.announcement. I see if I find it again.



This is becoming dangerous. The impoort of power from "dirty2 and unwanted sources like nucear bocks and dirty coal power plants, has climbed over the past years. The German envruionmentalism- paradoxically leads to a growth in these sources in other countries. Also, the specific mechnaism of the legal and the subvention scheme in German reversed the usual link between production and costs: that the more mass production of something there is, the cheaper the individual item or quantity gets. The more renewable energy gets produced in germany - the more expensive it gets priced. That is absurd, a perverting of elemental market principles. Well, planned-economy illusions,. nuff said. They cannot even master building an airport anymore. But they plan the future of the world...?
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Old 04-19-2019, 03:01 PM   #12
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Don't forget that the higher energy density gets in new-fangled batteries the more consequential the flamey stuff gets when things go wrong. These fires produce their own oxygen and will burn full blast under water. The combustion byproducts of battery fires are also mucho nasty.

Safe and very high energy density batteries are a one or the other proposition right now, and for the foreseeable future. Present electric automobiles are relatively safe with proper handling and charging. One production or consumer mistake can change that in an instant. Remember the exploding laptops? Multiply that by a thousand for potential harm.

As far as sheer driving quality goes, electric is a kick in the pants. Crack the throttle and instantly your motor is at full torque, blowing away any internal combustion car short of a Formula 1 race car. Maintenance costs should be much lower. The lack of noise is amazing. If we can come up with a high drain lithium based battery good for more than three years of life now, we'll be golden. And we need a lot better battery stability.
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