Is Italy ever going to have a proper government?

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...Matteo-Salvini

Dribble news bought to you by the Express.

[Jimbuna]

Only time will tell.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by STEED

Dribble news bought to you by the Express.

As I said on page 1, the bomb was dropped by HuffPost Italy - they got anonymously a draft of the coalition treaty negotiated at that time. When it became known, both parties ruddered back, and in the treaty they now handed to the president leaving the Euro no longer gets mentioned (but obviously the intetion is nevertheless there), but the demand to get a debt cut of 250 billion is included, also the demand that EU treaties should be renegotiated.


Well. Treaties and laws do not mean anything in and for the EU and ECB, anyway. They break, violate, bend and bypass them all the time. Its not the exception - its the rule.


Its all just inkpissing and paragraphturning, circensis for the plebs in the street to get their approval for one's own claim to power and money-devaluation.


Die dümmsten Kälber wählen sich ihre Metzger selber. (The stupidest calves choose their butchers themselves).

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Only time will tell.

Yea just like Greece.

[Skybird]

By the published government program they handed in to the president, Italy has declared war on Germany and other net payers, on the ECB, the EU, and has declared money to be completely pointless.


Interesting to see whzat Germany will do if this goes through. The German finance ministry was given to the red-socialists of the SPD as a price for Merkel's fourth reign of horror. The SPD already is in support for the money-frenzy wished for by Superfranconia's flying Macronman.


Did you guess it? The average household wealth in Italy is higher than in Germany. Germany and Belgium also are the two highest taxied nations. In net robbery, over half of the earned money of German ordinary employees get plundered by the state,and state-enforced "services".

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

By the published government program they handed in to the president, Italy has declared war on Germany and other net payers, on the ECB, the EU, and has declared money to be completely pointless.


Interesting to see whzat Germany will do if this goes through. The German finance ministry was given to the red-socialists of the SPD as a price for Merkel's fourth reign of horror. The SPD already is in support for the money-frenzy wished for by Superfranconia's flying Macronman.


Did you guess it? The average household wealth in Italy is higher than in Germany. Germany and Belgium also are the two highest taxied nations. In net robbery, over half of the earned money of German ordinary employees get plundered by the state,and state-enforced "services".

Do you think this is going to become a trend amongst EU member states Sky?

[Catfish]

^ you hope

I don't think so. Maybe some smaller countries will, but they are more of a liability than an asset anyway. Reform the union with European nations which stand to EU values, and are financially strong enough.

The EU has tried to influence nationalist regimes by letting them join the EU, i say kick them out.
Italy will not leave, believe me.

And Turkey does not need to become an EU member to be in the NATO. Not that Erdoghan does not flirt with Putin though.

[Skybird]

Maybe you know that in the board of directors of the ECB there is a rotation mechanism established. In frequent intervals, two member states have to stay out for one governing period. The mechanism as well as the the weighing of voting voices is such that net receivers in the Euro zone always have the majority and can always out-vote net payers, if decisions must be formed by majority votes of any kind. And an industrial heavy weight like Germany or - so far - the UK have the same voting weight like an economic dwarf like Malta.

Considering this, you can easily answer your question yourself, Jim. Net payers now are easy to be blackmailed, for they have enormous amounts of leased "money" in the fire. Germany's total Target-2-saldi now count over one trillion Euros. Eine Billionen in German, one trillion in English. Money that is de facto lost for Germany, that is stupidly leased away, without any securities given, and will never be see again. Three times the German yearly GDP, 3.3 times the British GDP.

Two more points: the "tragedy of the commons " (Tragik der Almenden), and the attempt to invest ever more ruinously into a lost cause just so to delay the revelation of that it all is lost indeed: this way, the losses are allowed to grow bigger and bigger.

Finally, the fact that after 200 years we must realise that the experiment of "democracy" in modern understanding (and the very different ancient understanding of it anyway) has spectacularly failed. The concept is a total misconception, and in principle bases on the law of the jungle. Modern democracy always leads to oligarchy, ochlocracy, socialist redistribution and expropriation. Its a self-fulfilling prophecy of what it claims it wants to prevent. We allow psychopaths and narcissists to speak and act on our behalf, and we allow them to not being held responsible for their failures and wrong decisions, the worst that cna happen to them is that they do not get vote dinto office agai8n, and keep all their pension claism nevertheless, and must not fear to lose any of their accumulated wealth. There is a reaosn why the literature oin argment against demicracy is growing. Because democracy has - necessarily! - failed. The modern understanding of it bases on socialist ideology, in principle, and ignores, like socialism, the essences of human nature. What it has done since the medieval is to replace th tyranny of the one by a tyranny of the few. Those in power use the power to form the rules of the game so that they are in their favour and defence. The other thus must base on thes eloaded laws, these fulham laws. The state breaks the same laws and unilaterally changes them like those controlling it want them to be. There is no law and order in the Western states anymore - and nobody realises it! Goivenrm,ents breka laws and treaties, and it has no consequences. Call them out for it, and you get demonised for moral excuses. Most voters - are incompetent in understanding and education and character to honour the responsibility the right to vote brings. The most noble duty of a democrat is called by Jason Brennan to not m ake use of it, to not vote. For everybody of us has the natural right to not be negatively affected by the stupidity and irresponsibility of our "next".

The money is broken. The indispensable standard for functuoning market comparisons thus is not avialable anymore, so market distortions necessarily accumulate, stockpile higher and higher into the air. And this is not even being understood by laughably so-called experts getting an education by so-called central banks!

The writing is on the wall, Jim. At every block, at every corner. For Germany for example it will mark the fifth total system failure and collapse since 1870.

I fear the collapse of the EU, for I think I will not be amongst those who will make through it that easily. I have all my current life to lose, my wealth - but then, I have to lose not more wealth than what the current state is plundering from me anyway. And still, there is this truly non-ego part in me that sees it from a historian's, form a traveller's point of view who does not participate in a siutuation, only travels through it, observes it, but does not take place and is not part of it. And this part knows that the EU must be destroyed, else the tyranny it will cast will become the most total one this continent has ever seen.

When there is just one mega-state, then everbyody not agreeing with this state's views has no more place to go. When there is just one state'S self-maintaining elite, there is no instance left that could quesiton its abuse of power to form the rules and laws as these elites want them to serve their interests best. We speak of a level of totalitanriansim that so far has been unimaginablew in history. Total, absolute power, one single dictate of thinking, opinion, way of life. No escape, no alternatives. This is where the wanted federal state of Europe is heading. Already now they try to criminalise disagreement with the EU's self-understanding, and criticising it. That is just the beginning. They will be successful with estabvlishing this totalitarinaism, becasue it come sin d isguise, it gets sold as humanitarianism and altruism and good-doership. Then disagreeing with the general trend and views means you are anti-humanistic, egoistic, and evil doing. And this you can see being practiced in the mainstream media already as well.

---

The way to go is to become small, and diverse, and numerous - the opposite of becoming bigger, and fewer, and unified. The will not be no mor wars and no mor ecirme, but they will shrink to levels that can be handeled again. There will not be no more corruption, but corruption of smaller dim ensions that does less harm and is easier to be fought. One fool, one stupid blockhead alone cannot spell desaster anymore for a continent of half a billion people. But an EU as only remaining instance of power anymore: one wrong decision at the top, and it spells ruin for the whole continent.

The idea is not new, that "small is beautiful". I already read about it thirty years ago in the writings by Leopold Kohr (an Austrian-born). Another name to mention is Ernst Friedrich Schumacher (a German born British economist).

Heck. This is a wiiiide ground to cover.

[JU_88]

I think the EU as an institution is on an irreversible but steady downward slope now.
Socially and Economically the odds against its survival are stacking up. And I don't see the political pendulum swinging back in its favor anytime soon either.
Its been riding on the back of decades of growth in progressive post-modernist ideas and politics in the west (open borders, centralized currency and political correctness to name a few)- all of which are now just starting to go out of fashion just about everywhere -but the institutions and metropolitan areas.
Couple that with its mishandling of the economic crisis, then the migrant crisis and its opposition to democracy (when it doesn't go the right way). In the long term, I don't see it making a come back from that but we'll see.

[STEED]

Italian PM-designate Giuseppe Conte has given up his bid to form a government after the country's president vetoed his choice of economy minister.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44275010


Cracks?

[Skybird]

The bomb is ticking. Italy is the block's predetermined breaking point.

Spain is under pressure.

France is as well.

Portugal.

Greece anyway.

The Euro crisis - never was gone away in the past ten years. And the time is approaching when even the most enthusiastic opportunists cannot deny anymore that there is no life in this still-birth named "Euro". You cannoit make money out fo nothing. You cannot make a money that is not an ordinary common good, fully decided on by markets. You just cannot. Politicians fantasizing about controlling the money, and bankers babbling of central banks, and economists committing economic mass destruction by claiming inflation is positive and must be artificially boosted, should be slaughtered in place, immediately, without remorse, like rabid dogs sneaking around a Kindergarden.

For Germany, the financial losses will be astronomical. We have trillions in the fire. Trillions. Trillions that the German leaders gave away headlessly, planlessly, for nothing else but illusions, buying time, hoping for the fairy queen to save it all. For other countries, a total state collapse is absolutely possible. I shiver when considering what this German gang of gangster and know-it-alls then will impose on the German people to compensate for the German brain beasts' oh so very many mistakes. Special taxes. Enforced disadvantageous exchange rates Euro- new D-Mark. Enforced mortgages on property that is debt-free. Enforced stocks expropriation. Gold prohibition or penalty taxes on sales with gold. Socialist "solidarity" taxes wioth our dear brothers and sisters in the other great EU countries. New paper money with wanted inbuild inflation.

We have had it almost all already in Germany, and repeatedly. We have had it all before. Repeatedly.

Frightening outlooks.

But when you allow psychopaths and narcissists to command withouht being held responsible for their commanding, if you allow them to never needing to be liable with their own private possessions and lives, if you allow them to define the laws of the law and order state to their liking and to make them so that they protect them, if you allow them to exclude themsleves form the consequences of what they impose in rules and commands and policies on the ordinary people - then what else do you expect? What else do you deserve? How could you dare to dream of not getting caught by what you allowed to be done in your name, with your legalization and agreement ?

There will come what may, and people may get hit as hard as they must suffer - but pity is most unjustified here. We spoke by our silent acceptance. We get what we have asked for. That is justice. There can be no justice without causal responsibility. Only where causal respopnsibility is given,t he question of and demand for justice makes sense - without it, its a pointless call or question.

[Jimbuna]

I happen to agree with a lot of what you posted above Sky but I feel absolutely gutted for the German public who will arguably suffer the greatest collective burdon then lose some of that feeling when as I suspect they will probably refuse to hold Merkel et al to account.

Some might say 'sheeple'

[Skybird]

Servile, I say.

But its not just Merkel. The whole idea of modern interpretation of democracy imo is a failed experiment. There is a reason why more and more literature gets published that put "democracy" itself into doubt. I know some of those books. Some of them are dynamite, and substantially robust in their thoughts and criticsm.

The problem is not the personnel, because the personnel is just the consequences of the system. The system itself is the problem. A state whose actors and institutions must not face competition and must not be object themselves to civil laws valid for every ordinary man or businessman. The breed of characters dominating in this system, is no surprise at all - its a logical consequences, based on a system that systematically sets the wrong incentives. You get people who reserve the right to put force on other people, and you get states that claim to possess (and milk) their citizens.

If it would not have been Merkel, it would have been somebody else like her.

"Wer von der Politik vernünftige Entscheidungen erwartet, hat nicht begriffen, daß der Wille zur Macht größer ist als alle Vernunft." - Roland Baader, economist, publicist, liberal thinker ("Those who expect reasonable decisions from politics have failed to realize that the will to power is greater than all reason.")

"Nimm vom Staat das Recht weg, was bleibt dann übrig als eine große Räuberbande?" - Augustinus of Hippo, Roman philosopher and theologican ("Take the law away from the state, what else is then left than a big band of robbers?")

"Wenn Plündern für eine Gruppe in der Gesellschaft zur Lebensart wird, schafft sie im Laufe der Zeit ein Rechtssystem, welches dies legalisiert, und einen Moralkodex, der es glorifiziert." - Claude-Frederic Bastiat, economist, poltiican.("When plunder becomes a way of life for a group in society, over time it creates a legal system that legalises it, and a moral code that glorifies it.")

"Jedermann kann öffentlich sein Interesse am Eigentum des anderen bekunden und diesem Verlangen nachgehen, vorausgesetzt er findet den Zugang zur Regierung. Daher wird in einer Demokratier jedermann zu einer Bedrohung. Konsequenterweise wird unter demokratischen Bedingungen das Begehren nach dem Eigentum anderer Leute systematisch gestärkt." - Hans-Hermann Hoppe, philosopher, critic of democracy ("Anyone can publicly express an interest in the other's property and pursue that desire, provided he finds access to the government. Therefore, in a democracy, everyone becomes a threat. Consequently, under democratic conditions, the desire for other people's property is systematically strengthened.")

What Hoppe says, is socialism. Thats why I - and in other places Hoppe as well - say that democracy always necessarily lead towards socialism.

If you want real liberty, you must abandon politics itself. Politics always are in themselves anti-liberty. The bigger a state, the fewer states there are - the bigger its inherent problems the less these problems can be monitored, tackled, solved, the more drastic and far reaching the consequences are of misled decisions of the decision makers at the top.

Thats in a nutshell the most profound reason why I am against organisations like the EU, UN, and other institutions on supra-state level. They breed totalitarianism, and socialism, they do so even more than single states. Necessarily, unavoidably.

In the end, nobody has the right to live his life at the cost and expense of somebody else. But this most profound principle gets violated all the time, and the violation gets glorified.

"Wer nicht verstehen will, daß die Besten ihre Länder längst wie gute Arbeitgeber aussuchen, den bestraft das Leben." - Gunnar Heinsohn, sociologist, economist, social philosopher ("Anyone who does not want to understand that the best have long since chosen their countries like they chose a good employer, will be punished by life.")

[Catfish]

Italy has its 65th government since the end of WW2.
I would not blame this on the EU

[Jimbuna]

They need Berlusconi back to sort everything out