LW/Ami Missions

[LuftWolf]

To be honest, Iwish I had a good solution for you. However, in creating the mod we have really opened up a whole new world in terms of what we can see in DW, I think anyway. I myself am extemely inexperienced in both mission design and practical tactics. My expertise in DW is strictly related to DB modelling at this point.

As such, a lot of heuristics were employed in figuring the "playability" aspects of the mod. The realism part was a process: Amizaur had realworld data and he and I worked to model it into the DB. Adjusting the bits of that for gaming was a matter of trial and error that is very much still going on.

We ARE confident about the sound levels. This has been fit from the best real-world data available. However, what I am not confident about are the settings on the passive sonars. Some may need to go up and some may need to go down in sensitivity; I personally have been very fortunate in the past day or so to run into an ABSOLUTE GURU of SC/DW modelling who is not necessarily part of our family here at subsim, and he has told me much about how the sound engine actually works.

However, to incorporate the information he has given me is going to take sometime and the effects on gameplay will be subtle, but important, especially for the things you are talking about. Specifically, increasing sensor performance on a curve for decreasing range NOT related to increase in relative noise level at the sensor surface.

So, I'm saying, in more simple terms, we are in the very middle of a work in progress and I'm neither an expert in RL or in DW. So we have to ask those who work on missions for the mod to consider themselves part of the process of exploring the real capabilities of the DW engine.

Amizaur and I (at least I know for myself) can primarily only mod because of real life time restrictions. This leaves direct testing the mod at position number 2, and play-testing of the mod at position number 3. Experimenting with mission design is whole separate issue that because of time and knowledge I know I can't fully explore. But together, mission designers and modders, we can work this out so everyone can spend hours and hours diving in the very near future, in the Alesian ASW killing-fields that DW could be.

I personally thank you for your support and efforts in this direction!

Cheers,
David

[LuftWolf]

The data you posted is consistent with our design intention. The SW does not increase sound level until it reaches 4kts, so at 6kts the increase in speed is not significant for sound level and that is about the same for both DB's, but for different reasons (in stock soundvsspeed is not very big effect).

So the SW in stock db in that situation is about at NL 64, and in our DB it is about at NL 57, and given the log scale of the sounds, that would produce those detection ranges.

If you don't think that is right then I'm not sure if there is anything I can do to convince you, unforunately. :hmm:

But I'll keep trying!

[Fish]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Fish, for these reason I am coming to the conclusion that perhaps "arena" style missions are not meant for the mod and designers should focus of realistic mission tasking, to exploit or expose weaknesses in individual platforms, since the mod goes a long way towards removing the "generic" feel of the various platforms in play in terms of sonar performance.

The focus of the mod has shifted subtly from v1.xx to v2.xx. Originally, my plan was to address gameplay and playability issues only, when it came to light that Amizaur and I could do a "realism" mod with reasonable expectation of success, we both were excited about the prospect of shifting focus and that is what we've done. With this in mind, does it seem unreasonable that "realistic" missions would be the better way to go with a "realism" database as opposed to "arena" style death matches? :hmm:

Keep in mind, this is why we've included the quick install/uninstall... perhaps you can use stock db for arena style missions if you like them (personally I don't with the stock db, I like having to search around and my online opponents enjoy the hunt, several times we've never even fired on each other and still had a good time in the dive and considered it a success, now with deathmatches this could be hard case to make) and then make realistic MP missions with tasking for the realism DB.

Personally, I can live with the decline of arena matches for the mod if the reward is smoothly playing, balanced, ultra-realistic MP missions. I can live quite happily.

My first impression is this mod is not workable on a longer range. Sure some enthousiastic people will use it for multiplayer, but not for long in my opinion. They will be bored at some time, when we make ultra-realistic multiplayer maps.
Cruising around for two hours, not finding anything, well most will go for the stock game.
And when we want to have some action we have to put all platforms in a bathtub.
So, it's your and Amizaur's mod, and a very good one I think, hat of, you can do with the mod what you want.
But in my opinion, as it is now, the detection ranges are not what people want in multiplayer.
I do this for 6 years now, and I think (not being arrogant I hope) I know more or less what people like.
I have read hundreds, or better thousands of dive reports.

EDIT, I am a slow writer, sorry.

PS: I will work with different speeds later tonight.

[LuftWolf]

As with any hobby, you get out of it what you are looking to get out of it.

We mod, you design, everyone plays. Some play as MH-60 and Akula, some only dive SW, some only play K335 and no other sub and others play each platforms three times a day.

I never make judgements.

Please enjoy the game as you see fit and let me know if I can help!

[Fish]

I never make judgements.

I won't ask you to do.

Some times live forces you to do.

[LuftWolf]

Hehe...

Well, keep in mind the Sound vs. Speed effect is MUCH greater in our mod, so when platforms step on the gas there is a bigger penalty for speed.

If we wanted that effect to be realistic, then we had to lower the initial sound levels or the SW would sound like a supertanker at 38kts.

So if you can just convince players they have to go faster... well, I dunno. In any case, we are all smart people, I'm sure we can find a happy place for all of us in the DW world of ours. :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Fish]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Hehe...

Well, keep in mind the Sound vs. Speed effect is MUCH greater in our mod, so when platforms step on the gas there is a bigger penalty for speed.

If we wanted that effect to be realistic, then we had to lower the initial sound levels or the SW would sound like a supertanker at 38kts.

So if you can just convince players they have to go faster... well, I dunno. In any case, we are all smart people, I'm sure we can find a happy place for all of us in the DW world of ours. :rotfl: :rotfl:

I set the speed for the Seawolf to 16 knts, I was able to detect here at 10,8 nm.
I am afraid you get missions where people have a low cost on gas. :hmm:

Could you make the same mod with longer detection ranges?
Roughly 70 % of what we have with the stock version?
Just a question.

[LuftWolf]

Absolutely, the process would involve increasing the NL's by a scaled figure. We could simply give each platform within a certain NL range a set NL increase.

None of these NL values have been pulled out of thin air. Amizaur calculated the standard level of background noise, and then entered the level of noise for the platform above that background noise level based on his information. So in game terms, as it stands with the mod, they are emitting the "real" amount of noise as closely as could be done. So the 688i in RL would actually emit noise out to a certain point that is fairly close to what we've got.

What is not worked out, however, is how much the passive sensors should be sensitive to that noise and at what ranges. I have recently learned that the third factor in the log scale is provided by the sensor parameters themselves, so it is simply not a matter of setting the noise levels, since the calculations are not absolutely the same for each sensor, based on their "sensitivity", which is actually a measure of how much the sound level for signal contacts is amplified above base noise by the sensor itself.

In any case, I've been assured that DW is in fact everything SCS claims it to be and much more, just the stock DB has been sanitized, with the expectation that WE, the community, would make with it what we want, as best we can.

Essentially, we can do whatever we want once we unlock the complete secrets of the DB, DW is that good.

[LuftWolf]

I should also add, that while the SeaWolves' primary concern is sub vs sub engagements, and in deed this mod does very much change tactics and mission design for that, the surface/air vs sub game has been dramatically more balanced by the mod, and I can say this based on OKO's experience and the experience I have just had playing with OKO and the MS crew. So far, since they have gone with the mod, I believe the Red subs are able to penetrate complex ASW screens with MH-60's, P-3's, and AEGIS SAG's, mostly human controlled, with about 50% success, depending on how much people are on their game and of course the ever present luck and random factors, a great improvement in balance performance with missions that, although designed for the stock DB, were setup with RL parameters in mind in the first place, so reasonable distances and starting points were there from the beginning, its just the detection ranges for buoys etc were WAY too big for the missions to work.

[Bill Nichols]

Originally Posted by OKO

I made some MP missions (5 released and 2 near release) for DW, and before your MOD, US won 4/5 of the time.
I tought it was balanced, but the "too much easy" way the buoy and helos detected subs made it really difficult for red side.

On the tonight test (i tested it yesterday also but with only 2 other guys instead of the usual 5 to 8 we have on our matches), I could see missions are now very well balanced, just because it's much harder for US to detect subs.

So finally I haven't anything to change on my scenarios !
happy for that ...

here is the url to download them if you want to take a look =>
http://okof4.free.fr/missions/DW/

scenario is from 45mn to 2h30 of game
Usually around 1h.
Give us some nice fights :|\

Oko -- let me know when you are ready to release your new missions

[Molon Labe]

I haven't played with 2.01 yet, but in 2.0 the Seawolf was ridiculously quiet, even at high speed. I think this has been fixed in 2.01.

A few things to keep in mind when criticising detection ranges


First, the Seawolf should have a sound level and sensor advantage over even the newest Akulas; she was built to keep that edge...although that edge is much smaller now than it was during the cold war.

Second, the 'even' battle in the mod is the 688I v. Akula. This corresponds closely to real life noise levels; the 688I likely has better sensors, however.

Third, and this is a balance issue, in stock DW Akulas are kicking American sub's asses because of the uber-effective aTMA + SS-N-27ASW combination. Closer detection ranges mean less of an opportunity to use missile weapons, which evens the odds quite a bit. Keep in mind that the US removed missile-torps from their subs because it is unlikey that they would be needed because the ranges at which they are usefull is beyond normal sonar range...

[Bellman]

Bill appologise for not answering sooner - I have only just returned to this thread.

I greatly appreciate your kind offer and will take you up on it, in about a weeks time.

I have been deconstructing some of OKOs 'open' scenarios to attempt to figure out triggers.

Fish was a great help on dynamic groups. Although I never figured out how he swung a phantom Nimitz
into a scenario which he denied was there. These 'Wizards' :hmm:

I swear I was on the wagon.

First I have to deconstruct my head But concentration wavered with the excellent LWAMI seducing attention.

[OKO]

don't forget to reconstruct after deconstruct

:rotfl:

[OKO]

Originally Posted by Bill Nichols

Oko -- let me know when you are ready to release your new missions

Bill ...
you will be the first informed when I will 'at last' make the english briefings of the next two missions.
Maybe I look a bit familiar with english on board, but on a briefing, when you need accurate and technical language, I really have problems.

At this time I have 2 missions ready to release.
the most 'sophisticated' (doesn't mean the best ...) missions I made.
But the briefs are long and difficult to make.

Not a joke, it's my main problem actually.
I'll do my best to finish these briefs ASAP.
But I can't release missions without it.

And it's an honor for me you ask for my next scenarios.

[LuftWolf]

Ok guys, I've had a very busy weekend.

I am going to do some work on the unit tables and charts for the mod tonight, so expect them, conservatively, sometime early next week or so.

Sorry about the delays in this, but I'm not necessarily looking forward to this most tedious aspect of the otherwise glory-filled modding lifestyle. :rotfl:

Also, any input on what you believe would be the most effective way to present this information, and what information you'd like to see included, is MOST appreciated!