UK Politics Thread

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

The EU is a project by progressives, intellectuals and central-planning elites, for progressives, intellectuals and central planning elites.

Corrected that for you.

[Catfish]

So you want to compare Greece and Poland?
Poland did economically better because of keeping out migrants?
I'd say this is a basic attitude of the country's citizens and especially those rich who do not pay taxes in Greece.

Also: First, Polands PIS party is not so old that this achievement can be put on their positive list of achievements, can it?
Second Poland did so well because of being a EU member. But i'd give you that, being in the EU or out Poland would still fare better than Greece, guaranteed.

Did i say only poor countries benefit from being in the EU? How about the UK? England? Ireland? How was Manchester built up? Of course smaller countries, too, like Malta (also UK i know), or Slovenia or Estonia, or Latvia. Greece and Italy are special, because of the rich paying almost no taxes there, while their tax-evading mostly benefits the London banks

As i just read the average person in England has lost 900 pounds during the last year. So the pound is still strong compared to the Dollar? But the dollar has fallen as well. Growth in the EU and the Eurozone is higher in the previous 12 months than the UK, and it is projected to stay that way.
I see the UK government is so brilliant with its strategies and foresight, so as you said i will just lean back, get my popcorn and observe how the UK continues to become the world's Nr. 1 economy after brexit.

[...] Now the UK is going to ask the EU for an extension to Brexit, The EU will choose weather or not grant this based on what they prefer.[...].

Oh, the EU will grant the UK an extension until short before the EU elections this year, but this will be it. That is, if the EU is not infected by the UK brexit chaos, and still has a brain to think with.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The net payers going off the flag - that is what the EU must fear. The loss of centralist control when the collective splinters.


Another threat is that net debtors in the Euro scheme leave the currency. There creditors will not see their credits ever again anyway, but if their debtors leave, the creditors cannot hide this fact from their voters at home anymore.

Yep, funny isn't it, when a person or company survives on maxed out credit cards and just pay's off the interest each month, is frowned upon and seen as irresponsible, (which it is)
But for most government & institutions in the world, its the standard practice - so long as things look good on the surface (right now), that's all that matters. Screw the future, someone else will have to deal with it.
Frightening really.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Catfish

So you want to compare Greece and Poland?
Poland did economically better because of keeping out migrants? .

No I thought i made that clear. Not so much economically (other than trying to get them fed and housed in the short term).
But more socially, are you going to pretend there has been no social problems in the nations bearing the brunt of the migrant crisis over the past 4 years? I hope not.
Economically Poles remained more cautious when it came to borrowing. I don't know about the PIS party, but i don't see who its relevant as I'm talking about How Poland acted over the past 2 decades.
The Eus open arms towards migrants and refugees, was more than likely an investment in man power & cheap labour force (based on declining western birth rates) dressed up in alot of heroic self inflated progressive fluff. Nothing more. Turned out to be more complicated and messy than they anticipated.
Migrants drowning in Med/ Dissapearing off the radar/ committing disproportional crime / not particularly wanting to work in car factories. (cant blame them on that last one)
And then far right crazies coming out of the cracks to exploit the situation, rile up support and threaten to toppling centrist establishments.


Many were not paying taxes in Greece, not just rich, evasion was easy and went largely unpunished. plus it goes way deep in to Greek Culture. The Eu knew this when Greece signed up, seems they didn't care.
Now Greek tax has risen with austerity, so people avoid paying them them more, and keep their money out of banks in case the government seizes their personal savings (the Eu was just fine with this Policy by the way, not an infringement of article 1, imagine that!) We are talking about regular working class people by the way, not millionaires.
One Greek guy I had a drink with last year to said the taxes were just half the problem, the other half being that 'it turns out to not be not very sustainable to import cars and computers, while exporting olive oil and feta cheese'.


Italian government has been a hot bed of corruption for a very long time now. so its no surprised they bit off more than they could chew and got greedy.

But then I already explained that the Eu is only proportionally to blame for Italy and Greeces mess, they heavily encouraged/ contributed towards them making it - but were not pressing the buttons. And also they showed ZERO sympathy for those who suffered when gravy train ended.

I will also point out the rich also pay virtually no taxes in Switzerland. And no real problems there.

Originally Posted by Catfish

Did i say only poor countries benefit from being in the EU? How about the UK? England? Ireland? How was Manchester built up? .

Do you think that's actually been paid for yet? governments and large institutions don't need to pay for things like that BEFORE or AS they are carried out, they can fiddle it to pay years or decades later, the way our wonderful system works. And of course governments don't make any actual money of there own, they collect from the population, (and they borrow). So our kids / Germany's Kids will likely still end up paying for that one in the end.
I somehow doubt the EU just said 'here England, you've been a good boy so have some no strings attached cash you can use to regenerate Manchester'.
No.
What countries get back from the Eu is often roughly proportional to what they put in. So in the end it makes no real difference. Nobody hands money over to the EU for free, and nobody receives money from the Eu for free. There is no 'free money'. - but there is cheap money. (ie, lower interest rates on debt)
And what the Eu mostly offered to poorer nations, was access to the single market and access to CHEAP BORROWING which they could not afford to ever repay.
The EU helped to sell them a 10 year binge with a 30+ year hangover.

Originally Posted by Catfish

As i just read the average person in England has lost 900 pounds during the last year. So the pound is still strong compared to the Dollar? But the dollar has fallen as well. Growth in the EU and the Eurozone is higher in the previous 12 months than the UK, and it is projected to stay that way.
I see the UK government is so brilliant with its strategies and foresight, so as you said i will just lean back, get my popcorn and observe how the UK continues to become the world's Nr. 1 economy after brexit.

no the UK wont be No1 after Brexit obviously - it will tank int he short term on a No deal - no doubt about it.

As it for the markets indicating/forecasting how strong or weak a nation or blocks economy is doing, remember the market only operates on short term perceptions, they don't address underlying problems (like rotting foundations) anymore than our politicians do. if they did - the U.S.A would have junk status today with its 20+ trillion debt (with everyone else not far behind).

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Now the UK is going to ask the EU for an extension to Brexit, The EU will choose weather or not grant this based on what they prefer.

a) leave to crash out - in the hope it will be chaotic and make an example to other Euro skeptic member states.

b) £20-13 Billion a year + perk of maintaining some control over UK law and policy.

If I'm right, they will go for option b) because they need money.
If I'm wrong and they are in fact financially sustainable, they will pick option a)

Their response to the extension will speak volumes on their current state. Lets see shall we.

I'm guessing they'll go for a) as well but b) might just be the push that Parliament needs.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Oh, the EU will grant the UK an extension until short before the EU elections this year, but this will be it. That is, if the EU is not infected by the UK brexit chaos, and still has a brain to think with.

If the UK take part in the EU elections I predict a chaotic aftermath caused by a large influx of right wing MEP's

[Skybird]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47614074


Speaker John Bercow says a third vote on an dela unchanged, is not possible.


Also, I learned yesterday that the European High Court aleady said months ago that a unilateral retreat from Brexit by the UK just with the intention to later file it again, is not possible, must not be accepted by the EU.



Of course, this does not mean that politicians will necessarily follow laws, rules and obligations. Especially the recent, modern history of the EU and the Euro is an endless chain of broken laws and broken treaties and broken promises, and knows so many cheats, lies, dubious avoidance manouvers, and betrayals.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Corrected that for you.

There is a link behind my original words, which are

"Brexit is a project by the elites, for the elites – the rest of us were never meant to benefit from it"

From here:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8531241.html

“There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”
- Warren Buffet

[mapuc]

By reading some of your post and reading and hearing the news I get the feeling

There are people in England and in The EU who is doing everything to keep UK in EU.

(I know I have mentioned this before, but thou more info I get, thou more convinced I'm)

Markus

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by mapuc

[...]I get the feeling
There are people in England and in The EU who is doing everything to keep UK in EU. [...]

Maybe up to last year, but this may have changed in the last months. Regarding a further delay, this will not go beyond the beginning of the next EU elections may 23rd, 2019.
Whether getting out with or without deal, i do not see a realistic plan or path to what should be better after this for anyone, in Europe. Russia and China (and the US) will of course have a laugh and a real measurable advantage.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Speaker John Bercow says a third vote on an dela unchanged, is not possible.

Bercows supposed 'impartiality' has been called into question on a few occasions recently.

[Jimbuna]

The challenge has been accepted and the game is on.

Theresa May will defy John Bercow and “find a way through” to stage a third vote on her twice-defeated Brexit deal next week, a Cabinet minister has insisted.

Stephen Barclay, the Brexit secretary, revealed the prime minister would attempt to get around the Speaker’s shock ruling – that identical votes cannot be restaged after defeats – by arguing she had secured changes.

One option was to insist the EU agreeing an extension to Article 50 to delay Brexit day constituted a different motion, or to agree changes that satisfied the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP).
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexi...id=mailsignout

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

The challenge has been accepted and the game is on.

About time he stopped pandering too the remainers. I agree why should PM May bring back the same thing that was rejected, if she makes big changes then yes put it to the vote.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by STEED

About time he stopped pandering too the remainers. I agree why should PM May bring back the same thing that was rejected, if she makes big changes then yes put it to the vote.

I think you've missed the point....his actions work solely in favour of the remainers.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I have no opinion on Mr. Bercow's decision. However I'm astonished that this came as a "surprise" to British politicians and media. This outcome was predicted in Yle's (Finnish counterpart to BBC) Politiikkaradio (Politics Radio) show last week. Then the only question was when this kind of statement would be published.



You would think British politicians and media would know their Erskine May better than some foreign journalists.