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Old 11-23-2017, 04:19 AM   #46
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It could even be a bigger ship that overran the surfaced sub in a storm, they probably would not even notice it.

So, to make it short, the Argentine Navy has no clue where the boat is. Neither has anyone else.
It is sobering, that even with those escape pods in Russian subs, and emergency buoys that can be released from a grounded boat, all still does not help in an emergency. Not with the Kursk back then, and not now.

Bureaucracy, or better desinformation and "keeping one's face" are in higher esteem than helping the sailors. Of course, it is all soo patriotic.


I really hope they are still alive and can be rescued, but after more than a week, no contact being made and rescue subs being as rare as unicorns ...
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Old 11-23-2017, 04:27 AM   #47
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Default Royal Navy tol assist

HMS Protector will help in the search efforts:

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-an...arine-search-2
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Old 11-23-2017, 05:44 AM   #48
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Still hope, not much but a little.
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Old 11-23-2017, 07:16 AM   #49
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Grim story this has ended up to be.

Yesterdy there was some news background report on the TR1700 in one newspaper, saying that the boats the Argentinians bought did not have certain security features that are standard on boats in the German navy, and that should make it literally impossible to imagine that a boat runs out of all options to emergency-surface, which is the priority on boats of this limited size, because they have no internal bulkheads (so the author wrote) that allow to seal comparments against flooding, like you use to do on much bigger SSNs. They wrote an SSN can put priority on sealling flooding compartments, for a small SS like this howere the technical priority is to always pop up to the surface, no matter what. Seems to be a big difference in technical possibilities, and procedures favoured.

Thats why I am so sceptical about the outcome of this story. The priority of this boat would have been - and that is what it was desiged for - to emergency-surface. If that failed, it literalyl has run out of options already. The TR1700 has no internal bulkheads. Once a flooding happens somewhere, the whole boat will fill up, inevitably.
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Old 11-23-2017, 08:37 AM   #50
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An electrical failure alone will not necessarily lead to a sinking.. but as i heard they have recorded an unusual sound underwater, after the last transmission. If the hull was breached even if it's only a small leak, and they have no electricity...
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Old 11-23-2017, 08:45 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybird View Post
Sounds as if the spokesman in that article is somewhat avoiding the question. Mentioning snorkeling and m ission operation time while the sub obviously cannot surface or move, is a distraction.

Their electric did break probably, so implies the news so far, maybe they even had a battery or cable fire, which is worst case, or in toxication of the atmosphere from the betteries, and I take it that the sub sits still on the ground. Who knows how long it was submerged already when the problems showed up. I think you do not snorkel from 70m, or do you?

I fear they are already gone. Its the scenario with the highest probability. Hope I am wrong, though.
The Navy spokesman has been very responsible in how he conveys information. He might have been taken out of context. I heard the interview and he mentioned all possibilities from the starting point that the vessel was known to have been at least at snorkel depth by the time the last message was sent. After that, it either went down with the atmosphere having just been refreshed, or it managed to complete a couple more cycles of snorkeling before whatever happened took place. This is just to illustrate that there is no way of ascertaining with 100% accuracy the available levels of oxygen.
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Old 11-23-2017, 09:29 AM   #52
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Argentine navy confirms the "violent" acoustic anomaly "consistent with an explosion" taking place on Wednesday last week and reported yesterday.
The search area's depth varies between 200mts and up to 3000mts as it sits right in the edge of the continental platform.
The acoustic event took place 3 hours after the last communication with the vessel.
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Old 11-23-2017, 09:59 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomcatMVD View Post
Argentine navy confirms the "violent" acoustic anomaly "consistent with an explosion" taking place on Wednesday last week and reported yesterday.
The search area's depth varies between 200mts and up to 3000mts as it sits right in the edge of the continental platform.
The acoustic event took place 3 hours after the last communication with the vessel.

Dammit!!!
All hope seems to be gone now!
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Old 11-23-2017, 12:01 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybird View Post
Grim story this has ended up to be.

Yesterdy there was some news background report on the TR1700 in one newspaper, saying that the boats the Argentinians bought did not have certain security features that are standard on boats in the German navy, and that should make it literally impossible to imagine that a boat runs out of all options to emergency-surface, which is the priority on boats of this limited size, because they have no internal bulkheads (so the author wrote) that allow to seal comparments against flooding, like you use to do on much bigger SSNs. They wrote an SSN can put priority on sealling flooding compartments, for a small SS like this howere the technical priority is to always pop up to the surface, no matter what. Seems to be a big difference in technical possibilities, and procedures favoured.

Thats why I am so sceptical about the outcome of this story. The priority of this boat would have been - and that is what it was desiged for - to emergency-surface. If that failed, it literalyl has run out of options already. The TR1700 has no internal bulkheads. Once a flooding happens somewhere, the whole boat will fill up, inevitably.
Can you provide a link to this background story? It sounds quite interesting that there would not be any pressure/watertight buikheads inside pressure hull. Granted, TR-1700 is small boat, but it is still larger than current German submarines and I have always assumed that threre would be atleast two separate compartments, propably three.
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Old 11-23-2017, 01:09 PM   #55
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The recorded explosion (= possible implosion ?) seems to have been confirmed. This in timeline with the last contact to the submarine sadly looks like the most horrible outcome possible. Let's hope they are wrong, even though I guess they'd run out of air before anyone can reach them.
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Old 11-23-2017, 01:11 PM   #56
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I counted at least five watertight transverse bulkheads on a TR1700. Like any ship it can probably survive with one compartment flooded. However I doubt she could stay afloat with two of them compromised.



Also this might be a pretty good source for latest intel.

http://www.elsnorkel.com/ habla Español only
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Old 11-23-2017, 02:13 PM   #57
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I cxan only repeat what they wrote in one of the Germasn mainstrema media, on the difference between the TR1700 for Argentinia, and the boats folr the german navy like the 209 and 212.

The explicitly pointed out a difference in emergency procedure priorities on SSN of the British or American navy, and this tiny SS, saying that these nculear boats are so big that mucz greater empohasis is out on damage control by isolating flooded compartments, becasue due to their size these boats still could surface with flood water on board. The tinier SS like the TR1700, they said, cannot afford that stabilization attempt and then surfacing under more controlled conditions, they must in cas eof an emergency immediately pout all pritirty on getting up to the surface or they are done. The procedure of SSNs, they cannot afford.

They also said that a difference between the TR1700 and boats of the 209 and 212 type is that the TR1700 lacks some engineering solutions and emergency fallback systems that should make it almost unimaginable that the 209s and 212s could not surface, it had something to do with reserve air and such things, I do not remember all details. The quoted gemrna navy officer or engineer or whoever he was explcitly said that single comoartments of the boat could not be sealed off, the 1700 had no bulkheads. Whether the author of the article , refering to that interview, concluded there are no bulkheads becasue it mad eno sense anyway to seal off an compartment iof that means the boatr cannot surfac with one compartment full of water, or whether his source indeed said there are no material bulkheads, I cannot say. He just said "no bulkheads in this boat".

Sorry, guys, it was just an article in one of the major newspaperts over here, and I cannot remember which one, since I skim several ones per day, you know how it is: you do your usual daily routine, read some stuff, and do not make further mental notes on names, sources, origins. Text would have been in German anyway.

Its relatively clear, however: SS boats of this small size can afford only much less damage, than much bigger boats of the kind of an SSN. Their tolerance for inflooding water and its ballast weight, also is much smaller, necessarily. Thats the central core of the message.
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Old 11-23-2017, 03:12 PM   #58
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Sounds like everybody is rushing to the spot the explosion was heard at. The P-8s should get there first. Whether she is sitting on the bottom or if she imploded,the wreckage has to be found. The families of the crew members deserve some closure.
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Old 11-23-2017, 03:35 PM   #59
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Had high hopes they would find the crew alive or some of them. After reading the lastest about this recorded sound, which could be an explosion I must say that this hope is now very low.

Earlier today I read in an article they will do anything to find this sub whether the crew is alive or not.

It has not only to do with the family or the love ones-It has also to do with what made the sub explode or implode

It could be an unknown construction failure.

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Old 11-23-2017, 06:27 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapuc View Post
...

It could be an unknown construction failure.

Markus
Or sadly as the article Skybird presented seems to have alluded too, a case of you get what you pay for.
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