DicheBach Questions

[DicheBach]

I asked a couple questions in older threads that haven't seen any action so I'm starting a thread where I can post any simple straightforward questions I have. If anyone else wants to use it that way too, that is great; sort of a "Quick Questions/Quick Answers" thread.

1. What is the range on a hydrophone?

2. Do "thermal layers" block hydrophone detection by destroyers?

3. How the hell does one use the stadimeter? (incredibly vague how to match up the two images)

4. Using the U.S. TDC, how do I get my aft tubes to just shoot STRAIGHT out? I've managed to get it to do it a couple times, but it often seems to want to curve the damn thing around 150-degrees as if I was aiming at something in front of me.

5. Assuming IDEAL circumstances (Hard difficulty), what are the exact steps one should follow to hit a slow moving lone merchant with a torpedo (and assuming you have already intercepted him and are a few nautical miles (nm) in front of him and 1/2 to 1 nm off of his projected course?

I've got better than 'random' with #5 (have probably sank 30 to 40 merchant men but that is from firing probably 200 torpedoes! ), but I still feel like surfacing and swimming circles around them at high speed and lobbing shells at them is an even better tactic (though risky). I've now managed to sink about 6 destroyers and about 4 of those were from deck gun fire, not from torps.

. . . so many questions . . . this is just a good start. Game is truly amazing. Needs to be expanded to include all naval warfare, not just subs . . . the naval gunnery thing is like Space Invaders on crack . . .

[DicheBach]

Heh . . . just sank 3 destroyers within about 30 minutes in game time. Stalked a convoy that was reported at like 19 hours distant. Caught them, moved slightly in front and to their starboard. Realized it had 3 escorts not just 1, decided to attack on the surface and take out the escorts.

Did that, and didn't even take a scratch!

Backed off and let the (now helpless) convoy of like 15 ships resume its course. After a couple hours came back toward them then went to periscope depth (shallow water though). They detected me and started to scramble.

Fired all 8 torpedoes in a Sargo class, not one hit. Its like they need to be staying EXACTLY on course, and crawling like a granny AND within 500 yards at the time you setup the shot (otherwise the stadimeter is all but useless because the image is so hard to make out detail on).

How do you masterful skippers get one shot torpedo kills!?

I've seen YTs of guys doing this, but I suspect they had their computer opponents scripted to act passive, because in my games, they almost NEVER proceed blithely and as soon as you fire that first shot they start ducking and dodging and causing you to waste ever subsequent shot unless it is just plain lucky.

[torpedobait]

Originally Posted by DicheBach

Heh . . . just sank 3 destroyers within about 30 minutes in game time. Stalked a convoy that was reported at like 19 hours distant. Caught them, moved slightly in front and to their starboard. Realized it had 3 escorts not just 1, decided to attack on the surface and take out the escorts.

Did that, and didn't even take a scratch!

Backed off and let the (now helpless) convoy of like 15 ships resume its course. After a couple hours came back toward them then went to periscope depth (shallow water though). They detected me and started to scramble.

Fired all 8 torpedoes in a Sargo class, not one hit. Its like they need to be staying EXACTLY on course, and crawling like a granny AND within 500 yards at the time you setup the shot (otherwise the stadimeter is all but useless because the image is so hard to make out detail on).

How do you masterful skippers get one shot torpedo kills!?

I've seen YTs of guys doing this, but I suspect they had their computer opponents scripted to act passive, because in my games, they almost NEVER proceed blithely and as soon as you fire that first shot they start ducking and dodging and causing you to waste ever subsequent shot unless it is just plain lucky.

Here is a hint. Fire at the farthest target first; then using the distance difference between that one and the next closest, and the time it takes a torpedo to travel that distance, fire at the second farthest when the time difference expires. Using this method will get simultaneous hits on up to four targets (the most I've ever tried). They don't have a chance to dance out of your way. While a single hit may not sink any of them, it will cripple and slow them down for finishing off after you reload.

Disclosure: I do use auto-targeting (on the premise that my crew would have done the calculations for me anyway, and I hate math), but even if you do it yourself the method above will work.

[DicheBach]

Originally Posted by torpedobait

Here is a hint. Fire at the farthest target first; then using the distance difference between that one and the next closest, and the time it takes a torpedo to travel that distance, fire at the second farthest when the time difference expires. Using this method will get simultaneous hits on up to four targets (the most I've ever tried). They don't have a chance to dance out of your way. While a single hit may not sink any of them, it will cripple and slow them down for finishing off after you reload.

Disclosure: I do use auto-targeting (on the premise that my crew would have done the calculations for me anyway, and I hate math), but even if you do it yourself the method above will work.

Cool! I'll try that.

I've got a bit better with actually using the stadimeter, and using the TDC. I still use the "cheat map" (I think it is called the combat map in the game).

I'd say can sink on freighter per about 3.5 torpedoes now; maybe 4.5.

I devastate those escorts though. My new tactic is to just charge a large convoy, get the escorts to come at me wheel around and take them out one by one with the 4" 50 cal. I think in my current career up to about July 1942 I must be up to 8 destroyers 1 sub chaser and 5 gun boats killed and maybe only one of those was with a torpedo.

If the navy would let me pack more ammo for that deck gun, I'd take out the whole damn Jap navy!

[torpedobait]

Originally Posted by DicheBach

Cool! I'll try that.

I devastate those escorts though. My new tactic is to just charge a large convoy, get the escorts to come at me wheel around and take them out one by one with the 4" 50 cal. I think in my current career up to about July 1942 I must be up to 8 destroyers 1 sub chaser and 5 gun boats killed and maybe only one of those was with a torpedo.

If the navy would let me pack more ammo for that deck gun, I'd take out the whole damn Jap navy!

Wow! I've never tried taking them head on with a deck gun. They are usually so accurate and do so much damage that I don't take them on while on the surface unless it is that or die. I do dive and turn towards (right at) them, periscope up to give them a good reference point, wait until they are just inside 800 yards, and give them a Mark 14. They will almost always initiate a turn upon spotting the torpedo, which will catch them in the stern quarter no matter which way they go. It the first one is not a fatal blow, their turn brings them broadside - an easy kill. I'd like to not "waste" a torpedo that way, but survival comes first.

Playing with realism @ 75% (camera on and auto-targeting, with difficulty set to "Realistic").

[DicheBach]

I'm on "Hard" in career mode which I think corresponds to "High" in the game options. I think that is about 75% ball park. Only things that make it easier are : 1. map contacts are turned on. 2. external views are turned on.

I tried playing a career mode in "Very Hard" (which corresponds to those two advantages turned off) and found it was (at my level of mastery of skippering) damn near impossible. Maybe after Hard gets boring I can do Very Hard, but at this point I just don't have enough situational awareness about the geometry. I can however see that those abilities are increasing as I play it on Hard.

I was surprised at how easy I find the Destroyers to take out. As long as I can take them on one by one--or at least engage only one of them at relatively close range while the other two or three are still at some distance--they are challenging but doable. I find they are terrible gunners, but then I'm going like 18 to 21 knots and weaving 5 degrees or more to port and starboard just about every other shot. The hard part is determining the range and for that, I use the compass on the navigation map. The technique is about like this:

1. Figure out how many escorts there are while submerged or at range with the sonar.
2. Position so that only one is closer.
3. Surface and charge him at flank speed starting at about 10 to 15,000 yards or so.
4. Once he sees you, he'll charge you too.
5. Using the nav map, estimate a good point to turn. There are two ways to do this, and a combination of both tends to work.
A. approach him at about angle so that he is in the <=345 or >=15 bearing
B. Turn and move away at anywhere from a 90 to a 180 degree (90 is hard because the range tends to change too quickly). Moving away with him somewhere in the 155 to 205 bearing ball park is good.
You can set up step 5 with waypoints and just make the turn away point far enough that it will take you 30 minutes to get there, this will be the course you follow as he chases you and you blow him to smithereens.
6. Plot this "running away attack" trajectory in the nav map and with a goal to make your initial turn in the 7500 to 4500 yard range.
7. Once you are in that ballpark (depending on visibility) you are in business as far as starting to get some hits (I have actually managed hits from as far as 12,000 yards I believe but it was a very slow moving target and involved lots of map interpolation).
8. Just switch to the nav map, use the compass to get a general idea of his range, switch to the gun and set the range and start trying shots.
9. Once you get one hit on him, it is generally easy to keep landing them next 5 to 10 and generally it never takes more than 15 hits to kill one, and I have on occasion killed one with only 3 or 4 hits.
10. The trick is just to anticipate what his trajectory and velocity are, lead your shots, and change range appropriately between each shot, switching to adjust course ("weave") using the rudder control as needed.

Out of the 12 or so I've killed in this career, I believe I've only been damaged twice, maybe only once.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by DicheBach

I devastate those escorts though. My new tactic is to just charge a large convoy, get the escorts to come at me wheel around and take them out one by one with the 4" 50 cal. I think in my current career up to about July 1942 I must be up to 8 destroyers 1 sub chaser and 5 gun boats killed and maybe only one of those was with a torpedo.

If the navy would let me pack more ammo for that deck gun, I'd take out the whole damn Jap navy!

I invite you to try that with TMO or FOTRSU. The DDs will fire at you from a mile outside your range, as they did in real life. Their aim is better than yours too. I assure you, no American sub took out "the whole damn Jap navy" in the war and neither will you. You won't sink one DD.

Let's see what happens in Game Fixes Only when you give both the sub and Japanese warships Slightly Subnuclear Ordinance. Even with ultimate power the sub just doesn't stand much of a chance.

[DicheBach]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I invite you to try that with TMO or FOTRSU. The DDs will fire at you from a mile outside your range, as they did in real life. Their aim is better than yours too. I assure you, no American sub took out "the whole damn Jap navy" in the war and neither will you. You won't sink one DD.

Let's see what happens in Game Fixes Only when you give both the sub and Japanese warships Slightly Subnuclear Ordinance. Even with ultimate power the sub just doesn't stand much of a chance.

Yeah I did give that a whirl in FOTRSU, and yes they are more difficult!

However, I still have managed to sink a couple

Computer algorithms are just not as good as me

ADDIT: 20mm subnuclear flak gun!

The first one or two that I took on were disasters, but I realized I was facing a more competent computer opponent and adjusted my tactics: higher speed, more weaving, keep the rear-end in his direction, and ideally, engage in rough seas.

I cannot recall now if I've managed to sink only one or two DDs using FOTRSU with "Hard" difficulty campaign, but definitely one. That one that I can defintely recall was in a storm, probably 6 or 7 foot waves, night time, raining, windy. He only hit me a couple times and I was down to about 75% hull, but the problem with a computer opponent is: even when what they are doing is not winning, they keep doing it. Once you've baited him into chasing you, as long as you keep him lined up properly you have a decent chance. The proper response from a human controlled DD skipper facing an annoying cheeky Yank sub nutjob would be to get a good radar range. turn to a nearly right angle on his general course, train ONE gun (not all) at under range, reduce speed and start walking in the shots. Once the range is established unleash with all guns.

Instead, what the computer opponent does is: he does not fire much at long range, preferring to close the distance. He does weave a bit but not nearly enough to deter a skilled human gunner. Between getting the Watch officer to tell me the ranges (and quickly converting them to yards), using the compass on the nav map. It doesn't take too many shots to get a general range on him. Once that is accomplished it is generally no worse than a 1 shot in 3 hit to miss ratio and with that sort of punishment (even with a 3" gun) the DD just cannot survive.

I would think that the really unrealistic part of all of this was that my gunners didn't either drown or wash overboard. Not sure if those guns could be manned while the sub was being periodically about half inundated or not . . . If they used tethers/straps to stay seated then I suppose it was doable as long as the gunners were serious adrenaline junkies and had nerves of steel!

[Rockin Robbins]

Isn't that Subnuclear 20mm Flak Gun the most fun you can have in Silent Hunter?

[DicheBach]

I really wish they'd use this engine to develop a more complete naval warfare game. One that allowed the player to command various surface ships, and with a variety of career campaign modes and mission modes. The naval gunnery is awesome in this game.

[Sniper297]

1. What is the range on a hydrophone?

Enemy destroyers, about 2900 yards for passive sonar, 550 yards for active. Sub sonar will pick up contacts around 7-10 miles.

2. Do "thermal layers" block hydrophone detection by destroyers?

Yes. In the stock game the hydrophone is reduced to 33% effectiveness, active sonar to 20% if your sub is 60 feet or more below the layer (the BT is on the keel, so you have to get the whole sub under the layer). It's rather unrealistic and oversimplified.

3. How the hell does one use the stadimeter? (incredibly vague how to match up the two images)


Waterline of the top image on the top of the mast for the lower image gives the range, provided you have the correct mast height dialed in.

4. Using the U.S. TDC, how do I get my aft tubes to just shoot STRAIGHT out? I've managed to get it to do it a couple times, but it often seems to want to curve the damn thing around 150-degrees as if I was aiming at something in front of me.

Set the scope to 180, click SEND RANGE AND BEARING TO TDC, and the fish will go straight out of the aft tubes - if the speed is set to zero. Having a speed and AOB dialed in will change the gyro angle.

5. Assuming IDEAL circumstances (Hard difficulty), what are the exact steps one should follow to hit a slow moving lone merchant with a torpedo (and assuming you have already intercepted him and are a few nautical miles (nm) in front of him and 1/2 to 1 nm off of his projected course?

The very first and most important thing is to hit the Q key, then W then Q, repeat until ALL the outer doors for the tubes are OPEN. The game is set up to automatically open the outer doors if you forget to, but there's a time lag of several seconds if they're not already open when you fire - and that means the fish leaves the tube with ancient history instead of the current solution. That's the single most critical part of the firing solution, because it uses the solution at the moment the fire button is hit, which is no longer valid if there's a delay while the tube door is opening. 90% of misses can be eliminated if you get in the habit of checking that the tube outer doors are open before firing.

[DicheBach]

Originally Posted by Sniper297

1. What is the range on a hydrophone?

Enemy destroyers, about 2900 yards for passive sonar, 550 yards for active. Sub sonar will pick up contacts around 7-10 miles.

2. Do "thermal layers" block hydrophone detection by destroyers?

Yes. In the stock game the hydrophone is reduced to 33% effectiveness, active sonar to 20% if your sub is 60 feet or more below the layer (the BT is on the keel, so you have to get the whole sub under the layer). It's rather unrealistic and oversimplified.

3. How the hell does one use the stadimeter? (incredibly vague how to match up the two images)


Waterline of the top image on the top of the mast for the lower image gives the range, provided you have the correct mast height dialed in.

4. Using the U.S. TDC, how do I get my aft tubes to just shoot STRAIGHT out? I've managed to get it to do it a couple times, but it often seems to want to curve the damn thing around 150-degrees as if I was aiming at something in front of me.

Set the scope to 180, click SEND RANGE AND BEARING TO TDC, and the fish will go straight out of the aft tubes - if the speed is set to zero. Having a speed and AOB dialed in will change the gyro angle.

5. Assuming IDEAL circumstances (Hard difficulty), what are the exact steps one should follow to hit a slow moving lone merchant with a torpedo (and assuming you have already intercepted him and are a few nautical miles (nm) in front of him and 1/2 to 1 nm off of his projected course?

The very first and most important thing is to hit the Q key, then W then Q, repeat until ALL the outer doors for the tubes are OPEN. The game is set up to automatically open the outer doors if you forget to, but there's a time lag of several seconds if they're not already open when you fire - and that means the fish leaves the tube with ancient history instead of the current solution. That's the single most critical part of the firing solution, because it uses the solution at the moment the fire button is hit, which is no longer valid if there's a delay while the tube door is opening. 90% of misses can be eliminated if you get in the habit of checking that the tube outer doors are open before firing.

Ah thanks Sniper!

I've been experimenting with NOT using position keeping and just trying to "guesstimate" when to fire by setting the AOB to zero, range to max, and speed to zero.

I've found that, if one is within about 500yards, you can do reasonably well just by keeping the cursor locked on zero relative bearing in the periscope (or 180 if firing the aft tubes), better in many instances than plugging in the data and letting the position keeper program each fish as it leaves based on the currently inferred position. The problems I see with using the position keeper:

1. AOB: there are two ways to estimate this

(a) the unrealistic but somewhat more accurate way (plot ones course and that of the target on the map, then use the protractor to set an angle along the targets course that measures where the hypotenuse is subs course). This is ostensibly the most accurate as it allows you to measure all three angles in the triangle and reconcile if they don't add up to 180. But it is obviously unrealistic, and the time lost from switching back and forth between nav map and periscope tends to mess up the freshness of readings.

(b) assume a 90 degree intersection of ones course and the targets course (in fact one can do a bit better than that by observing the targets course by plotting dots leading up to the last moments before firing, but they always seem to wobble a bit, and the escorts weave around like rattlesnakes. Read the relative bearing, add/subtract a bit for what it will be in a few moments, add the two together and subtract that from 180 = AOB. The trick of course is that, all this math goes right out the window seconds after the skipper of the target ship tells his helmsman to turn hard.

It seems to me that the "precision" of all these readings is often specious for the simple reason that the target ships characteristics can change before you get all your readings and plug them in! With that in mind, just eyeballing it seems "just about as good," no?

2. I'm not sure if the position keeper continues to adjust angle on the bow or not? If it does then it isn't as bad as I would think. I've noticed the range resets (which I assume reflect a counter that ticks down the range assuming everything else stays the same in the equations) after readings are taken, but unless this "position keeper" analog computer had a laser lock on it, I don't see how it could compensate for slight changes in the targets course and speed. So the whole idea of "position keeper" seems to be farcical, no? More like "Inferred range keeper (based on your speed and course and that numbers you plugged in for your target a couple seconds ago . . . which might have changed by now).

3. The actual instrumentation is problematic. I had figured out how the stadimeter works (waterline, the FoTRS help clarified that, but I don't think the stock did) and it is actually reasonably useful to get an estimate on range. For speed, I find its utility limited because it depends on an accurate AOB reading. If that is off, then the speed inferred can be badly off, even when the image matching is good. A speed estimate from two dots on the map seems better to me: you can take it before the target you up periscope (and even at considerable range using the hydrophone) and given every other tabulation method involves "assuming" no change since last reading, then two timed dots at the hydrophone prong (which of course is not realistic I would guess?) seems just about as good as what the stadimeter provides.

So the method I'm evolving toward is:

I. Immediately after hydrophone contact, plot one to three points at 1 minute intervals. This will define the targets course and speed.

II. Setup an intercept course that is a 90 off of their course and sufficiently far ahead that you can get into position stealthily.

III. Lurk about 500 to 1200 yards from where their course is supposed to place them.

IV. Set the TDC to zero speed, 0 AOB and max range.

V. Observe how the hydrophone prongs move and adjust position accordingly, trying to maintain a 90 orientation on the targets course and within about 500 to 1000 yards of where they will pass.

VI. As they get close enough, up periscope and eyeball when to fire the torps so that they will hit him in the side. I think there are probably even some decent "rule of thumb" conversions for "degrees of relative bearing crossing" (assuming a 90) at any given speed and range, but I haven't thought through those maths recently.

[Sniper297]

Yeah, to me the whole realistic targeting is more trouble than it's worth. The AOB in particular changes very slowly until the range closes, then changes too rapidly to keep up with - my method was to manually set it to 80 when the target was within 2000 yards, just so I could do the "final bearing and shoot" with the AOB already set to near the correct angle.

The angle-off method is easier, set the range to whatever, speed to zero, ignore the AOB and set the scope for a straight out the tubes bearing. Then offset the scope for the lead angle, if the target is coming from the right set the scope 10 to 15 degrees right of zero. Target is a MAYA, when the forward turret hits the crosshairs, fire one. Bridge in the crosshairs, fire two. Stack, fire three, aft mast fire four, essentially spreading the shots along the length by letting the forward progress of the target advance the impact points.

Then all four fish miss astern because I forgot to hit the Q key, then the W to cycle through all the tubes to open the outer doors BEFORE the target came into range.

I emphasize that one factor, DO NOT EVER allow the automatic outer door "feature" to open the outer doors for you, because it's the single biggest cause of misses astern. In fact one of the first things I did after getting Silent 3ditor was to open the \Submarine\NSS_18\NSS_18.sim file, go to wpn_SubTorpedoSys and change auto_open = True to auto_open = False, then repeat for all the other subs. That way if I forget to open the outer door it just won't fire and waste the fish. It's only a few seconds, but all too often that's all it takes to miss.

[DicheBach]

Had a little jaunt in the Nautilus (this is with Fall of the Rising Sun mod, which is quite good, not sure if the V-boats are in stock). Neat boat but boy is it slow to dive. That career was going good for about a month, then I befell a common foible I make: interloping into enemy harbors and either detecting naval mines or sub nets (or stealthy Krakens, I'm not sure) the "wrong" way. As they say, any ship can be a minesweeper . . . once.

I'll generally give myself one or two "reloads" or esp. when it was for reasons other than me just making really bad decisions. Reloading right before turning point moments in battle can be a good way to learn how different choices work out. But in general I prefer a "dead is dead" playstyle in character-based games like this one. It forces you to learn to be better I think. Plus lots of restarting careers helps to iron out the exact mod configuration, which for me is just FOTRS for now (albeit with the changes from Crew Fix plugged in manually by me).

I guess I'll start a new one in a Salmon class in Cavite. The Nautilus seems awfully vulnerable to aircraft attacks and I'm bad about forgetting/risking going to periscope depth in daylight. The S-boat was interesting, but of course the main goal is "survive long enough to get assigned a better boat." Would be neat to check out those two 6" guns in a brawl, but Rockin' Robbins had gone and given me a complex about my big gun fetish so I guess I better learn to rely 99% on torps like a real sub ace

Actually that reminds me, a "sub" that I'd love to see in this game: the the French "submarine cruiser" Surcouf!



It was on its way to the Pacific under Free French command and it got plowed by a freighter coming out of the Panama canal. Not a hard "what if" to consider that it didn't get rammed and actually wound up serving in the Pacific. Would be very cool to see how it performs!

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by DicheBach

the French "submarine cruiser" Surcouf!



It was on its way to the Pacific under Free French command and it got plowed by a freighter coming out of the Panama canal. Not a hard "what if" to consider that it didn't get rammed and actually wound up serving in the Pacific. Would be very cool to see how it performs!

Let's keep score. Surcouf encounters a merchant with three deck guns running by itself. It's pretty even: Surcouf's two 8" guns against the frieghter's three 5" guns. However the frieghter is a very superior gun platform to Surcouf.

Although the 8" guns have longer range, Surcouf's lousy surface handling properties mean that she must be at lower range to get any hits. Let's say they both open up at 6000 yards. Surcouf is carrying only 60 shells, barely adequate to sink one and if very fortunate, two freighters. However one hit from a single shell to Surcouf's pressure hull means that the submarine can still dive but will never surface again. It will take several dozen hits from Surcouf to cripple the freighter. My money is on the freighter to sink the Surcouf without suffering a single hit.

Surcouf was fancifully built as an "underwater cruiser." Obviously the crazy French had fantasies of running gun battles between Surcouf and some cruiser out there. It would have been her last and would have lasted several minutes.

Surcouf: Frankenboat! Failure as a cruiser, failure as a submarine. Looks cool though!