jamal Khashoggi murdered by Saudi agents

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

CIA concludes Saudi crown prince ordered Jamal Khashoggi’s assassination

Must be fake news

"President Trump has resisted blaming MBS for Khashoggi's death. He has cited the importance of the Saudis in countering the influence of Iran in the region, as well as future military sales by U.S. defense contractors.
On Saturday, President Trump called Saudi Arabia a "spectacular ally", citing the kingdom's contribution to American jobs and the economy."

Oil.

Anyone remembers Kashoggi's son had to shake hands with Bin Salman for "condolences"? I can't eat enough how much all this makes me throw up.

[vienna]

Originally Posted by u crank

Oh please. You must be joking. Are you suggesting that all previous administrations were a "paragon of virtue, integrity, ethics, and honesty". I sure hope not.

The past is the past as far as previous administrations go and we are now left with the present, which is under our watch. Just like in almost all comparative matters of performance, its "what are you doing now" and the guy in the Big Chair ain't no shining paragon. Pointing back at previous administrations to defend the failings of the current disaster of governance does little more than amplify how very deficient in any leadership qualities Trump and his minions are. Trump campaigned on MAGA, but all he's really done is make the US a diminished power and an international joke punchline. So, stop pointing backwards, start dealing with the now, and, if you got to point, point at how the current mess can be remedied...

Perhaps when President Pence takes office soon; after all, it seems Pence's current Chief Of Staff is being considered as a replacement fo Kelly as Trump's CoS; how convenient it will be for Pence when he has to take over after President Chump flames out...

Originally Posted by Catfish

You have to admit that general handling and conduct has reached an all-time low. Though i am not informed about Genghis Khan's speeches.

Neither am I, but I'd be willing to bet his would be a hell of a lot more cogent and better than than aimless ramblings of Trump...

...or is Trump-Speak the 'new Mongolian'?...









<O>

[u crank]

Originally Posted by vienna

Pointing back at previous administrations to defend the failings of the current disaster of governance does little more than amplify how very deficient in any leadership qualities Trump and his minions are.

I'm not defending the present or any of the past administrations. I'm just telling it like it is. It's your point. You defend it.

So, stop pointing backwards, start dealing with the now, and, if you got to point, point at how the current mess can be remedied...

Same way as the last one. An election.

Perhaps when President Pence takes office soon

Dream on if you wish.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Must be fake news

"President Trump has resisted blaming MBS for Khashoggi's death. He has cited the importance of the Saudis in countering the influence of Iran in the region, as well as future military sales by U.S. defense contractors.
On Saturday, President Trump called Saudi Arabia a "spectacular ally", citing the kingdom's contribution to American jobs and the economy."

Oil.

Anyone remembers Kashoggi's son had to shake hands with Bin Salman for "condolences"? I can't eat enough how much all this makes me throw up.

Khashoggi was very close and had many friends in high places in the U.S. Government including the CIA. He was a good source of information with a tremendous amount of connections throughout the middle east. His murder ticked off a lot of those friends especially those in the CIA.

Now I dont consider Saudi an ally, but we (not just Trump) have much of the same concerns in that region as the Saudis do. And regardless of the political rhetoric and fan boy finger pointing you might hear in the news. I think we will maintain a relationship with them not because we like them but out of necessity.

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

I think we will maintain a relationship with them not because we like them but out of necessity.

This is as true as it gets

[vienna]

Originally Posted by u crank

I'm not defending the present or any of the past administrations. I'm just telling it like it is. It's your point. You defend it.

Yes, and I told it like it is as well, wit the emphasis on is, not was. Simply trying to dodge a matter by always bringing up Obama, Hillary, Pelosi, etc., or past occurrences not really affecting the current situation, points out there is no real defense for the appallingly inept and shoddy excuse for governance the US is currently suffering from...

If you rcounter to my point is to weakly beat dead horses, then you should do as you say; "It's your point. You defend it"...


As far as 'President Pence' is concerned, I have been merely pointing out how passing strange it is how Pence has been placed more in the front on matters he previously had no comment, how he has assumed some of the public responsibilities from Trump, and how he has even appeared to veer away from Trump on some issues; putting Pence's CoS as Trump's CoS, in place of Kelly, seems a rather 'natural' way of easing what may be an approaching change of command; Pence could hit the ground running without the need to make staff decisions regarding his possible Presidency; overall, the actions surrounding Pence, of late, have seemed a bit too neat and convenient...

Of, course, if you are really concerned about Pence, you could probably stop him cold by putting an unmarried woman in the Oval Office; he appears to be scared to death of them...












<O>

[u crank]

Originally Posted by vienna

Yes, and I told it like it is as well, wit the emphasis on is, not was.

So we agree.

My emphasis, though not intended, is to simply point out that nothing has changed from administration to administration. Nothing.

..there is no real defense for the appallingly inept and shoddy excuse for governance the US is currently suffering from...

That's an opinion you are entitled to. Not everyone shares that opinion. Some people are quite happy. Nice to live in a pluralistic society eh.

As far as 'President Pence' is concerned,..

Gotta admit it rolls right off the tongue. But unless Trump resigns à la Nixon or for some other reason (boredom) Pence remains the #2 guy. Oh yea he may be impeached but found guilty by the Senate...no. Well highly unlikely unless of course he does stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoots someone. Of course there will have to be 'credible' witnesses.

Of, course, if you are really concerned about Pence, you could probably stop him cold by putting an unmarried woman in the Oval Office; he appears to be scared to death of them...

If only Bubba would have had that problem.

[vienna]

Trump, right now, is royally screwed, and by his own hand: with the obstruction of justice counts he will very, very likely face, his questionable business dealings, his continued efforts at subornation and witness tampering, with all of his 'trusted' advisers and pals flipping on him and his brood, he's in deep legal doo-doo. Add to this how the GOP Far Right is gonna hold him responsible for the loss of the House (and a spectacular loss at that: the greatest loss since Gerald Ford lost the House after the Watergate Scandal/Nixon's Resignation) and that Trump's "agenda" is going to be stymied in Congress as never before, and, oh yes, all those nice little House investigations into Trump's finances and connections, I'd bet, if push came to shove and the GOP could see another Nixonesque debacle on the horizon in 2020, they'd be more than willing to shove Trump and cut their losses. And the really sweet thing about all this is the "very, stable genius" will have brought all this down on himself. I predicted before that, faced with a loss of his 'empire', Trump will pull Nixon and cut a deal to save his ass by resigning...












<O>

[u crank]

^^^

Well you could be right. Or you could be wrong.

Like I said... some people are happy.

[Skybird]

Funny. Because of the murdering of Kashoggi, Germany now has stopped all arms deliveries to Saudi Arabia, including deals already running or decided for.


The war in Jemen and the massive collateral damage done there by a not overly concerned Saudi military did not acchieve that.

[Rockstar]

Hmmm,

Turkey probably threatened to send more immigrants or organize pro-Erdogan Muslim brotherhood political marches throughout Germany. In a planned effort to get Germany to stop arms sales and reduce Saudi effectiveness in Yemen. Allowing Iran and Turkey to more easily encircle Saudi Arabia with shiite backed governments.

The U.S. on the other hand continues to sell arms to Saudi Kingdom. Though I dont think because we like them but because as I stated earlier we have common concerns about Turkey and Iran.

[vienna]

Originally Posted by u crank

^^^

Well you could be right. Or you could be wrong.

Like I said... some people are happy.

Wow, what a 'major' accomplishment: Until Kavanaugh, Clarence Thomas received the lowest total confirmation vote in the Senate; Thomas got 52 votes, and Kavanugh got 50. Third lowest? Gorsuch with 54 total votes...


In contrast, Ginsburg got 96 votes out of 99 cast...














<O>

[u crank]

Originally Posted by vienna

Wow, what a 'major' accomplishment: Until Kavanaugh, Clarence Thomas received the lowest total confirmation vote in the Senate; Thomas got 52 votes, and Kavanugh got 50. Third lowest? Gorsuch with 54 total votes...


In contrast, Ginsburg got 96 votes out of 99 cast...

Hmm I don't think you understand how that process works. Getting confirmed is all that matters. That's the whole idea. It would not matter who Trump named from that list provided by The Federalist Society. Everyone knew what was going to happen. Some of them even announced it before hand. The result would have been the same. What's changed?

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's take on it.

“The way it was, was right,” she said. “The way it is, is wrong."

“The atmosphere in '93 was truly bipartisan," she said. "The vote on my confirmation was 96 to 3 even though I had spent about 10 years of my life litigating cases under the auspices of the [American Civil Liberties Union] ACLU and I was on the ACLU board, and one of their general counsels.”

Ginsburg said the White House at the time was nervous about her affiliation with the civil rights group, but she said she didn’t get a single question from a senator about it.

https://thehill.com/regulation/40650...-partisan-show

She noted that both Justice Stephen Breyer and Scalia were also confirmed by wide margins in the Senate — Breyer by a vote of 87-9, and Scalia by a vote of 98-0.

“Every Democrat and every Republican voted for him,” she said of Scalia.

“But that’s the way it should be. It’s better than what it’s become, which is a highly partisan show.”

The clown show put on by those Democratic Senators sets a new low in behavior. As the President, Trump had the right to nominate a conservative originalist. Just like he promised. Like I said...some people are happy.

And as his predecessor famously said, "elections have consequences" and "I won."

[vienna]

Originally Posted by u crank

Hmm I don't think you understand how that process works. Getting confirmed is all that matters. That's the whole idea. It would not matter who Trump named from that list provided by The Federalist Society. Everyone knew what was going to happen. Some of them even announced it before hand. The result would have been the same. What's changed?

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's take on it.



https://thehill.com/regulation/40650...-partisan-show



The clown show put on by those Democratic Senators sets a new low in behavior. As the President, Trump had the right to nominate a conservative originalist. Just like he promised. Like I said...some people are happy.

And as his predecessor famously said, "elections have consequences" and "I won."

Still, the paucity of a real mandate in the Senate for Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Thomas, etc. in comparison to the very wide, bipartisan endorsements of Ginsburg, Scalia, etc. is a fair bellweather of how, seemingly, the GOP has gone from quality nominees like Scalia to the barely acceptable, in the Senate, except along partisan lines, of Kavanaugh nad Gorsuch; the GOP now has the distinction of have the three lowest confirmation vote tallies for sitting justices...

As far as winning is concerned, well, Trump did win in the Electoral College, but he and his administration still suffers from the fact that 53.9% of the voters chose not to vote for him and the poll numbers have shown his support has slipped further; it is extremely hard to formulate an agenda (let's face it: it is extremely hard for Trump to formulate anything) and have it succeed when you don't have majority support, which Trump still doesn't have and even less after the 2018 Mid-Terms: the losses in the House, the very showing in the Senate, and the general repudiation of Trumpism at the local and state level do not inspire confidence nor does it make for effective governance...

The whole concept of 'I/We won' kind of reminds me of a story I heard when I spent a summer in Central America: there was a woman who was considered by all to be spiteful and wretched and much reviled. She was inordinately sting-willed, in a bad way, strong in the self-belief only sge was right, and given to petulance. She went shopping one day and finished the day with both hands filled with shopping bags, which she firmly gripped by the handles. She decided to take a city bus; the buses were ramshackle vehicles which, because of the heat, had no glazed windows and, because of the custom, no doors, just the door openings. The buses were, on the best of days, dangerously overcrowded, with passengers packed into the buses, some even hanging on to the outside window frames. Well, the woman was determined to get on the bus and plowed in, bullying and forcing her way on and into the interior. Having scored her 'victory', she looked down and found her shopping bags had torn off the handles and all she had, as the bus pulled away, were just those handles. Not willing to admit her actions had had very much less than desirable results, she firmly declared, "I win. I got on the bus!"...

Yes, sometimes you score a 'victory', but all it accomplishes is the loss of what you had a firm hold on; the GOP and Trump are dangerously close to being left with just the handles...

Sometimes the quality of the 'win' is more important than the win itself...











<O>

[u crank]

Originally Posted by vienna

Still, the paucity of a real mandate in the Senate for Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Thomas, etc. in comparison to the very wide, bipartisan endorsements of Ginsburg, Scalia, etc. is a fair bellweather of how, seemingly, the GOP has gone from quality nominees like Scalia to the barely acceptable, in the Senate, except along partisan lines, of Kavanaugh nad Gorsuch; the GOP now has the distinction of have the three lowest confirmation vote tallies for sitting justices...

Like I said. No conservative judge picked by Trump or anyone else would be acceptable. Not a chance.

So let's ask the question. What do you have against those Justices? I know what the Democrat Senators had against them. It's not that they aren't qualified. They are all highly qualified. Certainly as qualified as any of the current Justices. No it's all about their conservative and originalist view of the law and the constitution. Is that your objection?

..it is extremely hard to formulate an agenda and have it succeed when you don't have majority support, which Trump still doesn't have and even less after the 2018 Mid-Terms:

Is this not exactly what happened to Obama in 2010 only he suffered a far worse defeat at the hand of the electorate? Never the less he remained in office for six more years. So hang on to your hat. It should be noted that Ruth Bader Ginsburg is 85 years old and Stephen Breyer is 80. Donnie might get another kick at the can yet.

Sometimes the quality of the 'win' is more important than the win itself...

That all depends on your perspective. To some people two conservative Supreme Court Justices is a very high quality win.